Re: [DMCForum] Number of DMC Forums.

["Ryan Wright" <ryanpwright@xxxxxxxxx>]

On 7/11/06, Dave Stragand <dave.stragand@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>  You state that everyone else who runs a forum or mailing list is "power
>  hungry", yet you want to consolidate everything under your control?  =)

I didn't state that "everyone" who runs a forum is power hungry. Nor
did I ever state I want to consolidate anything under MY control. I
don't want control of it. I just want it to exist for the simple fact
that I hate checking half a dozen different forums - so I don't, and I
miss out on a lot of happenings.

I've said I'd be willing to start it, pay for the hosting, pay for the
software, etc, but again, that's just me wanting to have a better
DeLorean resource available. If I started a forum I'd dole out
moderator responsibilities to others. I'm not trying to be anybody's
dictator. I don't want that job.

>  Seriously, Ryan, you have stated multiple times that you don't like the
>  email-based community concept, and that you prefer a web interface.
>  That is perfectly fine; everyone has his/her preference. That's
>  important to remember.  You state, "Everyone would have to agree to shut
>  down and launch a single new system."   But why?

Without that, any new forum will simply splinter the community further.

>  I personally never read the various forums.  (I actually RUN a huge
>  forum for 1955-1961 MoPars... I have over 1,700 users... 57,000 posts...
>  and I hardly ever read it.  MY preference is email.  I run BOTH a
>  mailing list and a forum because some people prefer one, and some prefer
>  the other.  That will likely never change.)

I don't mean to offend, but 1,700 users is not a huge forum. It's a
nice forum, I'm sure, but it's not huge. Some of the aquarium and Home
Theater forums I visit have in excess of 40,000 users. Those are huge
forums.

However, on the concept of email vs. web based, I've been saying all
along that you can have it both ways. Modern web based forums allow
users to subscribe to entire sections (or the entire forum, if they
wish). It's virtually identical to an email based system.

The primary reasons I harp about web based forums are (1) The
different sections for discussion topics; and (2) The ability for
moderators to quickly and easily move topics between sections when it
becomes necessary to do so. Not to mention the fast and efficient
searching, etc. However, I don't actually visit the DMC web based
forums because they don't have a large following. This is not because
people necessarily prefer email lists, but rather because the DML has
the critical following of people. Therefore, I stick with the DML like
virtually everyone else.

>  I must be really tired or something, because I actually agree with Marc
>  - but he's right - 'build it, and they will come'.  Saying that it can
>  be done is one thing; implementing it is another.  I have never heard
>  anyone else with the opinion that there must be only one forum/list, and
>  frankly, getting the support of "all forum owners and moderators" will
>  likely not happen any more than having a consolidation of all DMC web
>  sites under one domain name, or all local clubs under one national
>  organization.  But, by all means, you are welcome and encouraged to try.

See, I'm not actually campaigning for this. I'm just discussing it.
The topic was brought up by someone else and I tossed in my opinion
(yet again). So, don't think I'm going out and trying to make this
happen - I'm not. I'm merely saying, "It would be nice."

That said, I would step up to the plate, put my money (and time) where
my mouth is and do the legwork on this if I thought it had a chance in
hell of succeeding. However, I don't think it does. You'd have to
swing the DML - if you convinced that forum to move, your work would
be, essentially, complete.

>  People have their 'hangouts', preferences, clubs, forums, and mailing
>  lists, and they all like or dislike them for their own independent
>  reasons.

You know, I've found that this isn't necessarily the case here. We are
a small enough community that there shouldn't be half a dozen
different forums. A few thousand people at best - all consolidated
under one roof, that's still a small forum. IMHO, the reason there are
so many different groups is due to the DML's system of moderation.

If I'm not mistaken, this was one of the first forums to splinter off.
Why, because enough people were sick and tired of dealing with DML
moderators. There is no consensus of moderation over there - your
messages can be rejected at random depending on the mood of the
particular moderator at the time. It's as if they tossed a bunch of
people in there willy-nilly, never agreeing on some ground rules for
post rejection. Not only that, there's the significant time delay in
conversation.

Tamir started the first web based forum that I know of, then DMCH
launched one, now there's another. There are too many forums for such
a small group of people.

>  Insisting that everyone needs to come together because -you-
>  don't like having to go to multiple places, ignores the needs and wants
>  of everyone else.  You state, "Everyone would have to agree to shut down
>  and launch a single new system."

That's a ridiculous statement. The needs and wants of everyone can be
included in a single forum with multiple areas. The key is that the
person who owns the forum itself not play dictator, but rather dole
out topic areas to different folks for moderation, work with those
people to ensure consistant moderation, and engage the community in
defining rules, enforcement procedures, and in policing the
moderators. The various subcategories could be structured to meet the
needs of everyone quite easily.

But, yes, everyone would have to agree to do this together. See below
for more on this.

>  Build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your forum.
>  Implement it FIRST, then ask for folks to make the move.  Trying to get
>  everyone to commit in advance to a unified forum that has not even been
>  built yet is never going to happen.

That's just it - the world will not beat a path, but rather, the new
forum will further splinter the community. How many forums have been
created? Hell, DMCH themselves created a forum and even it hasn't been
wildly successful. I had higher hopes there, but on the few occasions
I posted questions, I didn't receive any useful responses. I hop onto
the DML and my questions are answered.

>  You stated that you weren't going to do it without everyone agreeing in
>  advance to the change, but what have you shown those folks?  Do you have
>  a site yet?  No, you said you didn't want to put the time into it if no
>  one would come.

No, that's not what I said. I don't mind putting the time and money
into it. It's just time and money. Rather, I mind splintering the
community. I won't do that.

Nobody needs me to put a site up to demonstrate it. Everybody knows
exactly how a web based system works and what it looks ilke. Putting
up a demonstration site will accomplish nothing.

> Well, that's the same reason no one will agree to a
>  move in advance.  There are literally THOUSANDS of hours invested in the
>  current forums, mailing lists, web sites, etc.  No rational person would
>  ever consider throwing away all of the work that has gone into these
>  entities over the last 10 years simply because someone shows up and
>  says, "your stuff isn't any good, mine will be better, so give yours up
>  and you will see - but I won't even start mine until you give yours up.'

For crying out loud, Dave, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying we
unify the people running these various lists and build a new system
together. It's not "my" system. I don't want to run the damn thing. I
just want to consolidate this ridiculous quantity of forums.

You're painting me as a demanding child. "I want it my way! Mine,
mine, mine!" This isn't the case here at all. I want unification in
communications. I don't care how it happens, only that it happens. The
only way I see to get it done is:

1. Web/email hybrid system.
2. Agreement by forum owners to shut down when the new system is launched.
3. Active input from current forum owners and the community for site
development; a forum owned, collectively, by many people.

Basically, pull the community together, agree on a new standard, and
implement it as a team.

>  You have to be reasonable, you have to have some experience in dealing
>  with the technical, political, and personal, and you have to have a real
>  site, not just an idea.

Stop patronizing me. I've mitigated and negotiated disputes between
parties with a hell of a lot more at stake than this. I don't want
your condescension and I don't need it. The simple fact is if people
would come to the table and talk, we could, collectively, make a much
better community for DeLorean enthusiasts. The splintering of this
community into half a dozen forums sucks and there are a lot more
people than myself who feel that way.

>  Do your best, enlist the help of others, and go build the best D site
>  the world has ever seen, and it very well might become 'the one'.
>  However, you are going to have to invest an enormous amount of your own
>  time FIRST before asking for commitments from others, and there will
>  never be any guarantees.  That's what the rest of us have faced when
>  building our respective communities - you are going to have to do the
>  same if you ever expect to be taken seriously.

Horse shit. People in this community won't be attracted by features or
flashiness. It is the critical mass of users that makes the
difference. This will never be done here by someone going off and
"just doing it". Several have tried, all have more or less failed.
Tamir's site is the closest to success by far.

No; the support of the community and the current forum owners must be
gained and a new system built together. Otherwise, it's just another
idiot with yet another DeLorean forum.

-Ryan


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