Re: [DMCForum] Re: FW: Hummer H2 vs. Tahoe
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Re: [DMCForum] Re: FW: Hummer H2 vs. Tahoe

On 11/30/05, Marc Levy <malevy_nj@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> I too see 15 yr old SUV's for under 5K.  Do you think
> they are as reliable as a 5 yr old Kia?  Or Hyundai?

Oh, absolutely. I think a rusty old 1970's Pinto is more reliable than
a 5 year old Kia or a Hyundai. Kias and Hyundais are like 3 year cars.

I see your point, but I don't really agree with it. My folks' 1981
Chevy van that's worth a grand runs better than most used cars I've
seen. It fires right up and goes. You can buy good, reliable 15 year
old vehicles and you can buy crappy ones, all for about the same
price. You just have to pick and choose and find one that's in decent
condition. It doesn't matter what type of vehicle it is, there are
good old cars and bad old cars, good old SUVs and bad old SUVs.

In fact, in many cases I'd choose an older vehicle over a newer. I'd
take a 20 year old Fiero over most inexpensive modern vehicles.
Doesn't matter that the Fiero has 150k miles on it, it will probably
last me longer than the cheap, disposable crap automakers are putting
out now. Most of the sub-$15k (new) vehicles being sold today are crap
within 5 years.

Suffice it to say, though, if I needed a cheap old SUV I'm confident I
could find a good one quite easily, and it would probably last me
another 10+ years.

> And what about tires?  or service in general?  or
> GASOLINE?  The cost of owning a large vehicle exceeds
> that of a regular one even if the starting price is
> the same.

I won't argue with that, but it doesn't mean poor people are being
denied safety on the roads. I know a guy who makes so little money he
qualifies for the EITC. He's always broke, but he still manages to
own, maintain and drive several old pickups. Anybody who doesn't feel
safe in a little car can afford to buy and maintain a bigger vehicle.
They may have to get a little creative, but the only one who can deny
them a bigger vehicle is themselves.

> The DeLorean is lower than normal, however even in the
> DMC I don't find regular cars to be a significant
> problem when trying to make a turn, or pass, or pull
> out of a parking spot.  They simply don't block as
> much vision as the trucks do.


> I can't argue with that.  Here in NJ we are probably
> exceeding 40% SUV/Mini-Van's on the road.  Back up
> nice and slow?  Not in NJ.  There is minimal courtesy
> on the roads of NJ, even from drivers of regular cars.

Well, that sucks.

> "bother" is not the point.  The claim is, they don't
> deserve to be safe on the road because they don't have
> money.  Worse yet, your tuck is what is increasing
> their risk.

Well, we've established my complete disagreement with the money
aspect. As for my truck increasing their risk - OK, I'll buy that.
Doesn't mean I'm going to do anything about it. I don't think I have
any obligation, moral or otherwise, to drive smaller vehicles on the
off chance I might get into an accident.

We could stretch this even further and say all of these cars on the
road are bad because they increase the risk of motorcycle riders. If
you hit a guy on a motorcycle, he's going to die. But then, he knew
there were risks in riding that bike, just as people in little bitty
cars know there are risks amongst a freeway full of SUVs. They still
choose to drive what they drive.

> We are not talking about some natural phenomenon I am
> trying to overcome.  Your saying I should buy a BIGGER
> vehicle to overcome a situation created by the
> selfishness of others?  Well, that would only make me
> selfish too!  And now that I have something bigger,
> THEY will go bigger (assuming they may have bought
> their truck for the same reason).  So, how long does
> the cycle continue?  Will there always be something
> bigger?

Again, driving an SUV does not make it's owner selfish. If it does,
then I would submit that drivers of cars are just as selfish. If only
you selfish car drivers would buy motorcycles, you'd be guaranteed to
never hurt anyone but yourself. But oh no, you insist on a roof,
windows, space for passengers and climate control, and in doing so you
put motorcyclists at risk, you selfish person you.

As for how long the cycle continues, I think we already have the
answer to that. SUVs became popular. Then big SUVs became popular.
Then Ford built the Excursion, and a few crazy millionaires bought
that International CXT monster truck thing. Now? Ford isn't selling
many Excursions, International sure as hell isn't selling many CXTs,
and people are downsizing back to cars or smaller SUVs.

> This is where Ego seems plays a role, if you need to
> have the biggest truck on the road. Even if it is
> under the guise of safety.

We've talked about reasons for purchasing items already. Aside from a
few loonies here and there, nobody buys an SUV just to have the
biggest truck on the road. Everyone has their reasons for owning the
vehicle they do and virtually none of those reasons have anything to
do with ego (or penis size).

> Again there are other factors to maintain a vehicles.
> If you are in the market for a $3K set of wheels, you
> will get better value from a used car than a truck.
> The truck will be older, and in worse shape.

Older? Perhaps. Worse shape? I completely disagree. You can buy really
shitty late nineties cars for $3k. You can also buy a very nice
eighties truck for the same price. Older != worse shape.

A better value from a car, sure. A car will in almost every case be
cheaper to drive and maintain. But a motorcycle will give you an even
better value, so why not buy one of those?

You can't say poor people are being denied access to bigger vehicles
on one hand, then come back on the other and be upset because it turns
out they can purchase it but it's just not as good a deal as a car. Of
course it's not as good a deal. That's life. If a poor person wants
the best deal in transportation he can use his feet. If he doesn't
like that he can get a slightly worse deal in a bicycle, worse yet in
a motorcycle, worse yet in a car, even worse in a big truck or SUV.
He's not denied access to anything, he just has to choose where to
allocate his resources, and if he wants a truck he has to recognize
he's not going to get the best value in transportation. That's the
compromise he makes for having the big vehicle, same as the rest of

- Ryan - Store your bookmarks. On every computer.


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