Re: [DML] Re: Stainless Frame Features - quality of welds - very long

["Tom Niemczewski" <tomciodmc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hello Bryan

I feel that this is a very important topic and in my opinion it should be 
discussed in public so everyone knows about possible problems. If like you 
say the problems were taken care of why do you feel it is inappropriate to 
talk about it on the DML? You should be glad that everyone gets to know how 
much work went into those frames and that possible problems were addressed 
and resolved.
In reply to your post... Yes, you are right, I have based my evaluation of 
the welds on appearance. I did not have a chance to x-ray those welds and I 
did not have a chance to cut one to pieces. BUT, what is important is 
clearly visible without penetration of the welds. On the frame you had on 
display in Memphis it was clearly visible that the welds were not complete, 
with holes and very uneven. Just by looking at it anyone who has welding 
experience can tell that the joint was not complete and did not have full 
strength connection between parts. I took some pictures of that frame and I 
can upload them to the group.
I'm glad to hear that the problem of poor welding was resolved to the point 
where experts actually praise the quality. Do you have any pictures of 
current frames? I would like to see a close up view of some welds. I would 
like to see a close up of the TAB area. This is where the most important 
joints are for rear suspension as well as the area where the frame splits 
into two around the engine. I have a picture of that area from Memphis and 
would like to be able to see the improvement. Please upload a picture to the 
groups photo section. Also, would you happen to have anything stating that 
the critical welds were tested or checked for completeness and strength? 
X-ray, cut apart, load tested?
I did not want to mention any names without a permission from that person, 
but since you posted the name I can say that yes, that was the frame I saw. 
It was a third frame I saw in person. First one is the one on your red car, 
the second one was on display in Memphis and Walter's was third. All three 
looked pretty much the same with very poor welds.
Bryan, the issue I am talking about is the quality of the welds.... It's 
very nice of you that you offered a full refund for that frame but don't you 
think that frames of that quality should NEVER reach a customer?
I have started this discussion because as you might remember I was 
interested in getting one of your frames for my car. After seeing them in 
person however, I've changed my mind... I still want a stainless steel frame 
and I wanted to know what was done to improve your product. It was a great 
idea on your part to build that frame and everyone should and probably will 
eventually have a stainless frame on their car but you have to remember that 
it is a FRAME. A part that supports the entire car and suspension 
components. The frame experiences great forces and it needs to be as strong 
as possible. A frame that has welds that are so uneven... with holes cannot 
be rated as perfectly safe product. I'm glad that your frame is performing 
so good on your car and that other cars are fine too, but at the same time 
you have to remember that a component like that has to be build to withstand 
extreme situations. The frame might be fine for 20 years of normal driving 
but what if someone hits a large rock at highway speeds and the welds on the 
shock tower give way? I wish that something like that never happens but you 
have to think about things like that when building and selling a frame. I 
see that a lot of work went into the planning phase (all those drawings and 
measurements) but what about the execution? What happened there?
When I compared the welds on the control arms to the welds on the frame I 
was talking about the quality and completeness of those welds. They are even 
with both sides of the joint equally melted and fused together. The welds on 
the frame are a different story with one side melted all the way through and 
the other just barely heated or in some cases it seems like there is just 
material added on top without actual joining of the steel. That creates a 
weak joint. I can upload a picture with marked problem areas.
Bryan, please upload some pictures of the recent frames so anyone can see 
the improvement. This will be a great advertisement for you BTW. But if, 
just IF you still have a problem with the welding... why don't you simply 
hire someone else to do it right? You should x-ray all the critical joints 
on every frame to make sure they are safe. And they should be done by a 
professional. It's not really that expensive....
All it takes for a disaster to strike is ONE bad joint that fails at some 
point in time..... You have to do everything you can to make sure it doesn't 
happen.

PS. I apologize for misspelling your name Bryan


Tom Niemczewski
vin 6149 (in Poland!)
Google earth: 52°25'17.30"N 21° 1'58.00"E
tomciodmc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.deloreana.com




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bryan Pearce"
Tom, your evaluation of the welds on a PDC frame are based strictly
on appearance.  This is one method of evaluating the weld.  The other
is penetration of the weld for longevity and stability.  As with any
new endeavor, the appearance of the welds has improved significantly
since the beginning of this project.  All of the welds have always
been quality welds.  We have talked to our share of "expert" welders
of Stainless Steel and received praises for taking on the task of
building a car chassis out of Stainless and putting it together so
well.  The prototype Stainless Frame remains in use under my daily
driver with over 130,000 on the frame and no problems.  I also know
of other owners with Stainless frames without any problems.  You
don't have to feel "scared" in a DeLorean with one of our frames.

As for the frames you have examined, I believe one of the frames
belonged to Walter Coe in Florida.  This was an early frame.  You
know Walter and you did resided in Florida for a time.  Many long
time DMLers are familiar with Walter's issue with one of our frames.
This issue was addressed several years ago with him privately.
However Tom, since you have decided to make this posting to the
group, I will tell everyone that I spoke with Walter at great length
about the frame and offered a full refund.  The refund offer was
never accepted.

I am not going to turn this into a welding lesson, but compare the
welds on the inside of the front lower control arms to the majority
of welds on the frame.  You will see that they look almost the same.
You say the welds on the front lower control arms are a "thing of
beauty" but the exterior surface welds on the arms are a different
type of weld than the interior.  Additionally, the front lower arms
are electro polished.  The size of the frame makes electro polishing
costly.

If you wish to continue this conversation, please do so privately via
e-mail or phone.
-- 
===============================================
Bryan Pearce
Pearce Design Components
2N629 Jefferson St.
West Chicago, IL  60185
Phone:   (630) 293-0945
Fax:     (630) 293-0944

DeLorean Part Fabrication
===============================================






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