Re: [DML] Title Search

["therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas@xxxxxxxxx>]

--- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty@...> wrote:
>
> Most States charge for title searches. They NEVER give information out
> over the phone, they don't know who they are talking to.
<SNIP>

Well now.... What people are *not* supposed to say, and what
information you can coerce out of them are two separate things. Of
course Social Engineering is an entirely different subject.

Your state's laws may vary. However they should be able to tell you if
a vehicle currently has a lienholder against it. Maybe they can give
out that information over the phone of WHOM the lienholder is, and
maybe they can't. But they should at least be able to tell you either
if there is a lienholder, or what the valid current TITLE NUMBER is.

Citing California as an example, ALL Motor Vehicle records are
considered PUBLIC Records, and accessable by anyone. The exceptions to
this are "Personal" and "Confidential" Information pertaining to
residence, physical attributes, medical history, etc., and any other
indirect information that can reveal these details. Of course you
still need a valid reason to access this information, and whoever's
name in on these records will of course be notified that YOU requested
this information, and as to why.


<SNIP>
> The State DMV
> also won't know if the loan is paid off unless the Leinholder
> contacted them and recorded it as such. Not the way it is usually
> done. The Leinholder (usually a bank) has a title issued with them
> listed as Leinholder and they hold the origional. This way if the
> owner was to ask for a duplicate to "replace" a "lost" origional,
> everyone can still tell that the bank is owed money. When the loan is
> paid off the bank stamps the title paid and gives the origional to the
> owner. 
<SNIP>

This is absolutely correct, and is HOW you can tell if there is still
a valid lienholder on the vehicle. Here's an example, but first an
example of what the title looks like:
http://www.dmvnv.com/titles/designs.htm

You finance a vehicle. The dealership submits a new title request to
the state. It lists YOU as the Owner of said vehicle, and the
Leinholder of course as having a vested/financial interest in this
vehicle. This new title is sent to the lien holder, but is also
stamped with a serial #. Now when you pay the vehicle off, an
authorized representative of the Lien Holder signs the title removing
themselves as having any interest in this vehicle and sends you the
title. You are now sole owner of the vehicle, and can sell it as you
see fit. Makes sense. And what you have to realize is that the Title
serves both as proof of ownership, and as legal form. Dave is
absolutely right in that the state will NOT know that the Lien Holder
has released interest. Your state may vary, but they probably won't
know until the next time that title is submitted to the state to
either remove their name, or your name if you sell it.

Now keeping with this scenario, let's show why and how you can check
for a lien holder by citing a example of committing fraud.

Car X has been assigned Title #1 to it. "Title #1" is this case is
representative of the Serial, or Title # that has been assigned to it
by the state. And remember, each time a new title number is assigned
to a car's title, it's old one is no longer valid/legally recognized
by the state. Original Owner pays it lien, and then sells Car X to
another private party, or Mr. Smith as we'll call him here.

Mr. Smith legally owns vehicle, submits title to the state where the
original owner signed away ownership, and requests a new title for Car
X with HIS name on it as the legal owner, and no lien holder. Car X is
now assigned Title #2, and Mr. Smith receives said title.

Mr. Smith files an affidavit with the state claiming Title #2 has
either been lost or destroyed. Receives a replacement title with a new
Title #. Car X is now assigned Title #3.

Mr. Smith goes to his bank and decides to take out a vehicle loan on
Car X, with said vehicle being the collateral. He turns in Title #3 to
the Bank. Bank in turn submits title to the state requesting a new one
with their name as a lien holder. Car X is assigned Title #4.

Fast Forward: For whatever reason, Mr. Smith decides he's not going to
pay the bank back, nor will he turn his vehicle into them. So he
decides to sell it. He takes an ad out in the paper, and tries to pass
off Title #2 as the valid title in order to sell the car.

NOW here's what could happen; Mr. Jones comes to buy the car, and
see's a clean title. Now if he tries to register this car/request a
new title on it with the current title as proof of sale, it's going to
be rejected, because it's no longer valid. Even if it's out of state,
the new state will STILL contact the old state to check on the Title's
validity. Mr. Jones is now screwed. And while laws are different in
each state, most now days will NOT recognize a "Bill of Sale" as proof
of legal ownership. Only a valid vehicle title is recognized as a
proper legal document for that purpose.

How could you avoid this? Simple. Let's refer back to the example:
Mr. Jones suspects something is up, and decides to call his state DMV
Records department. Explains the situation, and asks the simple
question: "I want to buy "Car X", is "Title #2" the valid title # for
this car. The person who researches this on their computer finds out
that this Title # for this particular car has been superceded by
another and tells Mr. Jones this. And you can do this too!

And yes they can legally do this for free because 1. You are NOT
requesting any Personal and/or Confidential information about anyone,
& 2. You are NOT requesting a physical hard copy. And yes your DMV/Tax
Assessor has ALL of this information at their fingertips.

Now, what if this is an old title from another state? Guess what, if
you call that state, they will even have records from the other state
of when a title was transfered over to that particular state. I know
this because of my own research with California and Nevada records for
my own car. Cali has records on my car on microfiche all the way back
to the first title issued, and then shows it was eventually registered
in Nevada when I took possession. With the new national datebase that
went online back in the 90's, everything is intertwined now. It may
take weeks to obtain physical copies of old documents from the
archives, but you can still get current information right over the
phone. After all, where do you think CarFax gets it's information from?

Speaking of which, CarFax may show you what states a vehicle was
registered in, emissions tests, and it may show you milage, but it
will NOT show you Title #'s.

Now this isn't an everyday occurrence. It's doubtful that many people
who buy cars outright have the malice aforethought intention of
committing fraud. But it could happen. And of course you do have the
means to discover the truth. However the best advice of course is if
you've got a gut feeling that something isn't right, then walk away.

-Robert
vin 6585 "X"



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