RE: [DMCForum] Re: the EV1...

["timnagin" <timnagin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Here is a little study *I* did some time ago.  This was just me, in a few
minutes, with a few quick searches on the internet and a calculator.  A
scientific calculator no less.  Anyone please feel free to check this and
tell me if I am wrong.  Be prepared to back your findings up with provable
facts.

 

This was a friend looking at buying another Prius in addition to one they
already had.  The numbers for Prius mileage and cost of battery replacement
have changed a little since the car has been on the road with real world
numbers.  The sticker price for the Prius, locally, is still the same.

 

Greg

 

I also checked www.KBB.com <http://www.kbb.com/>  about the Toyota Prius
value.  The oldest version, 2001, at 100,000 miles in perfect condition
sells for $10,000 in a private sale.  If you bought one that old you know
you are reaching the end of the battery life and will have to soon
thereafter spend $3,500 to $5,000 to replace the batteries.  That car will
still be worth $10,000 after you just spent up to $5,000 for new batteries.
When the value of the Prius drops to or below the cost of the battery, even
if the car is still in perfect condition and useable, it makes no sense to
put more money in it that it is worth.  At that point people will just go
out and spend their money on a car that is more equivalent to the value of
the car.   That means the Prius, while still able to function, is worthless
and at the end of its useable life.  Then it has to be recycled, if the
person is diligent enough to take it somewhere to have it done properly.
Since most people trade their car in to dealerships, the dealership will
dispose of the car in whatever means it finds to be the least expensive.
That means it will probably end up in a wrecking yard.

 

A 2006 Prius at private party sale would be $21,755.  A new Prius is $22,795
before the mark up due to demand, but this mark up is diminishing as supply
increases.  You can approach $30,000 for a new one with options.

 

A 2005 (2006 data not available yet) Cavalier at private party sale would be
$10,505. A new Cavalier is no longer available, but the Cobalt essentially
replaced it.  That car ranges from $13,740 to $18,850.

 

If you bought the most expensive Cobalt at $18,850 and the least expensive
Prius at $21,755, with the Cobalt you would have an extra $2,905 immediately
which would cover all your gas and operating costs for close to two years.

 

 

  _____  

From: DMCForum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:DMCForum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of jonheese
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 11:36 PM
To: DMCForum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [DMCForum] Re: the EV1...

 

Here's a reply from another list, with sources:

"The original article is an opinion piece for a small college
newspaper. The whole article is garbage.

1. Take the "spitting distance" mileage, for example. The new EPA
combined mileage put the Chevy Aveo at 26 mpg, the Toyota Prius at 46
mpg. So I guess 20 miles more per gallon is "spitting distance."

2. The "Dust-to-dust" study is from a marketing firm, not a science
journal. It arrives at an artificially high cost for the Prius by
assigning it an arbitrary lifespan of 100k miles, and a Hummer 300k
miles. There's Prius being used as cabs that have 200k on them now:
http://www.msnbc. <http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8839690/> msn.com/id/8839690/

And, insofar as a car lasting, what car do you expect to repair less?
A Toyota Prius or a GM Hummer? You can check Consumer Reports for the
answer to that one. A good analysis of the flaws in dust-to-dust is
available at:
http://www.truedelt <http://www.truedelta.com/blog/?p=48> a.com/blog/?p=48

3. The Sudbury info is seriously outdated, and the comment about moon
buggies (like, when did Nasa test moon buggies - early 1970's) ought
to have given the author a clue. Sudbury was polluted by a century of
mining (1870 on). In fact, some of Sudbury's nickel went into making
the Statue of Liberty. Currently, the mine is owned by INCO (not
Toyota), and produces 100,000 tons of nickel a year, of which Toyota
buys 1% (1000 tons). Nickel, by the way, is primarily used to make
stainless steel. The Mail on Sunday newspaper, which ran the story the
college article is a thin re-write of (visible here
http://www.mailonsu
<http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article
_id=417227&in_page_id=1770>
nday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=417227&in_page_i
d=1770),
used a stock photo from 1994 to illustrate the pollution (visible here
http://www.photoboy <http://www.photoboy.com/bin/Cklb?vmo=1173985067754>
.com/bin/Cklb?vmo=1173985067754). There were, of
course, no Priuses in existence or being manufactured in 1994.

Sudbury is no longer as polluted, as INCO and the city have planted
over 8 million trees there since 1979. The best history online of the
Sudbury devastation/reforestation comes from GM Canada (the trees were
all cut down in 1871 to help rebuild Chicago after the fire), and it
provides telling photos of some of the reclamation from 1979 to present.
http://www.gmcanada
<http://www.gmcanada.com/inm/gmcanada/english/about/MissionGreen>
.com/inm/gmcanada/english/about/MissionGreen"

Regards,
Jon Heese 

--- In DMCForum@yahoogroup <mailto:DMCForum%40yahoogroups.com> s.com,
"timnagin" <timnagin@...> wrote:
>
> I never claimed the article was without fault. I know nickel is used in
> more things besides hybrid batteries. Still, the area where the
nickel mine
> is was supposedly damaged due to the mining. No, I haven't been
there and
> haven't seen the mine personally so I can not attest to that. The
one thing
> this writer states, that you have yet to provide, is specific facts
that can
> be verified.
> 
> 
> 
> This is pushing the limit of getting into politics, of which we have all
> agreed not to do, but we have enough oil here in the US to get off
foreign
> dependency. Gee, if we were only allowed to drill our own oil here,
in the
> gulf, and in ANWR. Wow, a very fast and easy way to get off foreign oil
> that could happen sooner than waiting for efficient hybrids!
> 
> 
> 
> I have no desire to spend $10k on top of the price of my truck to
double the
> gas mileage. If I wanted a better mileage vehicle, and it suited my
needs,
> I would just go get one that already exists without the mark up. Then
> again, I earned the money I spend on my truck and my gasoline so if
I want
> to dump raw fuel out of the exhaust pipe I can. Hang on while I remote
> start my truck and let it idle for a bit. :-)
> 
> 
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _____ 
> 
> From: DMCForum@yahoogroup <mailto:DMCForum%40yahoogroups.com> s.com
[mailto:DMCForum@yahoogroup <mailto:DMCForum%40yahoogroups.com> s.com] On
Behalf
> Of Bob Brandys
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 9:47 PM
> To: DMCForum@yahoogroup <mailto:DMCForum%40yahoogroups.com> s.com
> Subject: Re: [DMCForum] the EV1...
> 
> 
> 
> Sort sighed article, myoptic in its analysis. Misleading it is 
> implications.
> 
> Where are the cost savings associated with reduced CO2 emissions?
> Oh, those are "Externalities" (in economic terms) so they are not 
> quantified. BS
> 
> Where are the environmental costs of oil drilling and supply?. How 
> about the cost savings of not
> having a mideast war over oil of the future that will cost many 
> trillions of dollars?
> 
> The cost of this stupid Iraq war is now almost $1 trillion dollars. 
> That is about $10,000 per car in the US.
> Spending $10,000 more on a car to double its mileage would eliminate 
> the need for mid east oil.
> 
> Gee, wouldn't that be a good idea? Of course, at that point, there 
> would be an over supply of
> oil and the price would drop to below $1 per gallon. BUT WE WOULD BE 
> FREE FROM THEIR OIL!
> 
> The comments on nickel refining ASSUME that all the nickel is used in 
> hybrid cars.
> Get real. Most nickel is used in Stainless steel. This is just 
> misleading and inaccurate perspective.
> The amount of nickel used in NiMH batteries (which are recycled because 
> of their very high value) is insignificant compared to SS.
> 
> Bob





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