Re: [DMCForum] Posting FROM Marc Levy about Moderation

[Jon Heese <dmcforum@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

DISCLAIMER: If you find this post ridiculous and melodramatic, feel free 
to laugh at me, because I agree with you. =)

Here's a quick summary of the latest chapter in the Marc Level vs. DMC 
Forum story (based on the quoted email from Ryan below):

He disagreed with convention and spoke out against it, at which point he 
was silenced by those in power in hopes of keeping the issue out of the 
public spotlight.

The funny part is how the preceding paragraph still applies if you 
substitute Moses, Martin Luther, Galileo, Gandhi, and even MLK for Marc. 
  Granted, Marc is actually nowhere near the level of those mentioned, 
but the principles are the same.

Take that however you want, it's just my (twenty seven dollars and) two 
cents.

Regards,
Jon Heese

Ryan Wright wrote:
> Kevin, there is a reason Marc can no longer post here without
> moderation, and the below is why. I wish you had not done this, as you
> have now forced me into a situation I don't want to be in: That of
> dragging the list through another heated, public debate.
> 
> Marc has done nothing but stir up trouble since the day we enacted the
> new forum rules.  We have tried to keep this argument off the list.
> Unfortunately, due to your agreeing to post this message, it has now
> become public. With other members posting responses and taking sides,
> I have no choice but to open this topic up for full public discussion.
> Apologies to those of you who aren't interested in this garbage, but
> here we go anyway.
> 
> Anyone - except for Marc - who wants to chime in here, feel free. I am
> specifically excluding Marc from this discussion at this time for the
> simple reason that he has a knack for dragging people into heated
> debates of never ending circular logic, and I am not willing to allow
> him to do this right now. I would ask that the rest of you honor this
> request by not forwarding his messages to the list. Marc has already
> had his say through Kevin. Now, it is our turn.
> 
> I will address Marc's points one by one:
> 
> 
>> > Most of us here joined an UN-MODERATED mailing list
>> > for DeLorean owners and enthusiasts.  Things were
>> > going well until Walt made a critical mistake.  He
>> > entrusted Greg with the power of "ownership" in the
>> > list.  This mistake later resulted in Greg removing
>> > Walt as a member, and action which was never
>> > discussed
>> > with Walt.  Greg essentially "took over" the list on
>> > his own.  Walt wrote to me about this and said
>> > "looks
>> > like Greg has fucked me too".
> 
> 
> Walt abandoned this forum. Period. Greg, being an owner, had no choice
> but to take over operations.
> 
> 
>> http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/DMCForum/surveys?id=1335588
> 
> 
> Poll: Should discussions about politics be allowed on the DMC Forum?
> 
> Results:
> 44% No (13 votes)
> 27% Yes. (8 votes)
> 24% Don't care (7 votes)
> 3% Offer another suggestion (1 vote)
> 
> The members spoke. The decision was clear. Politics were to be banned
> from this forum. Marc will have you believe we should count the "Don't
> care" votes to be "Yes". This is, of course, ridiculous. "Don't care"
> votes are neutral; they add no weight to either the "Yes" or the "No"
> votes.
> 
> Marc has also argued that the vast majority of the membership didn't
> vote. This is immaterial. The people who bother to vote make the
> rules. If you don't bother to vote, you don't count.
> 
> 
>> http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/DMCForum/surveys?id=1335590
> 
> 
> Poll: Should discussions about religion be allowed on the DMC Forum?
> 
> Results:
> 46% No (13 votes)
> 28% Yes. (8 votes)
> 21% Don't care (6 votes)
> 3% Offer another suggestion (1 vote)
> 
> Again, the members voted to ban politics and religion. 46% in favor of the ban.
> 
> 
>> > I, Being a moderator of the list, was vocal against
>> > any censorship or rules that limited free speech.
>> >
>> > As all of this was happening, Greg decided to make
>> > Ryan a moderator.  Seemed like a good choice, being
>> > that they tended to be on the "same side" of most of
>> > our discussions.
>> >
>> > So, the vote is called based on Ryan's
>> > interpretation:
>> >  We will not allow politics and religion, and he
>> > came
>> > up with a set of "rules".
> 
> 
> Do the rest of you agree that I have interpreted the vote wrong? I
> believe the results speak clearly for themselves. Jon and Chuck, you
> have both announced your agreement with Marc. Is there something you
> would like to add to this discussion? To clarify, somehow, how I
> misinterpreted the voting?
> 
> Clearly, the majority voted to ban politics and religion. Do you not
> come to the same conclusion? If not, why?
> 
> 
>> http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/DMCForum/message/30562
>> >
>> > Shortly after, I was banned for having a discussion
>> > ABOUT the rules.  There was no discussion of
>> > religion
>> > or politics, but as soon as I publicly disagreed
>> > with
>> > Ryan and Greg I was booted off.
> 
> 
> Marc was "banned" by accident. Our intention was to remove his posting
> privileges for 24 hours to allow him to cool down. The ensuing fight
> that he started over the politics & religion ban threatened to consume
> the list yet again. Previously, during heated discussions, we would
> lose many members as people were not willing to put up with the amount
> of bullshit pouring into their inboxes. Marc came out with all fists
> flying and fought us, questioning the votes, questioning our motives,
> etc.
> 
> I asked that the discussion be stopped. Marc ignored me. I gave him
> several warnings, both on list and in private. Marc ignored me and
> continued to argue and fight on list. We figured a 24 hour period of
> non-posting would give him time to cool down. Unfortunately, due to my
> inexperience managing the Yahoo Groups interface, Marc was banned. We
> immediately emailed him and Greg spent over 6 hours (of actual time)
> trying to convince him to rejoin the list but he insisted there was a
> conspiracy; that I'd done it on purpose.
> 
> 
>> > I reluctantly returned to the Forum, through much
>> > persuasion of other members.
> 
> 
> Through much persuasion from myself, Greg, and the other moderators as
> well. I personally sent him several messages apologizing for the ban
> and asking him to rejoin. He refused for quite some time.
> 
> 
>> > Ryan is not happy with simply ruling the DMC Forum,
>> > He
>> > wants to rule all internet communications about
>> > DeLoreans.  So much so, that he HAS abused his
>> > current
>> > power to again censor the outspoken (in this case,
>> > me).  Without warning, he removed my ability to post
>> > to the list.
> 
> 
> You see, this is the problem with a person like Marc. He seems to have
> a paranoid delusion that I am out to get him and, apparently, the rest
> of the world. Rule all Internet communications? Because I said I'd
> like to see a common, universal forum? I don't even want to run the
> fucking thing. How many times do I have to say it? I don't want to
> "own" a damn thing! A single forum with multiple discussion areas run
> by a reasonably large committee of moderators would be to the benefit
> of this community. That's all I've ever campaigned for.
> 
> I am only a moderator here by reluctance. Greg asked for my help and I
> agreed. I don't get any joy out of this. How many of you really think
> this is fun - wasting all of this time dealing with Marc? I should be
> in bed right now, but no, here I am typing away. Do any of you want to
> do this? Do you want to receive the dozen "A member has just
> unsubscribed" messages every time a heated discussion takes place? Do
> you want to reply to the members who are pissed off AT YOU for not
> dealing with a certain somebody?
> 
> This isn't fun for me. I am helping out a friend. If any of you - Marc
> excluded - want to claim I'm on a "power trip", then trade me places.
> In a few months, when Marc, or someone else, decides to attack you and
> label you a "power hungry dictator" for doing what has to be done,
> we'll see how much fun you're really having.
> 
> 
>> > My "rule braking" message can be found here:
>> >
>> http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/DMCForum/message/34107
>> >
>> > I am not sure where in that message there is
>> > discussion of religion, or politics.  But, does it
>> > matter?
> 
> 
> No, it doesn't. What matters is Marc attacked somebody - in this case,
> me, but I would have responded the same if it had been any of you -
> publicly, on the list. He threatened to bring the list into yet
> another fight. I told him to stop and he refused. Therefore, with the
> support of other moderators, Marc was placed on "moderated" status
> meaning one of the 4 moderators would have to approve his messages
> before they could be posted.
> 
> 
>> > More importantly, why did Ryan not follow his OWN
>> > RULES:
>> >
>> > Discussions that the moderators deem inappropriate
>> > will be handled as
>> > follows:
>> >
>> > 1. A public warning will be posted in the relevant
>> > thread.
> 
> 
> The warning was posted.
> 
> 
>> > 2. Members who ignore the warning may be subject to
>> > a
>> > brief revocation of posting privileges.
> 
> 
> Marc's posting privileges were not revoked, they were restricted.
> 
> 
>> > 3. Continued violations will be handled on a case by
>> > case basis.
> 
> 
> We handled this on a case by case basis.
> 
> 
>> > 4. In the interest of full disclosure, moderator
>> > actions will be posted to the list.
> 
> 
> Our actions were not final. Marc's posting was not disabled, only his
> ability to continue this private fight on list. We have spent the past
> several days debating what action to take against Marc. We just
> decided his fate this afternoon and were drafting a message to send to
> the list regarding our decision this evening.
> 
> Coming to a consensus between 4 people on what to do with a person
> like Marc takes time, especially when we're communicating via email.
> 
> 
>> > No "public warning" was posted on this matter.
> 
> 
> Right here: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/DMCForum/message/34106
> 
> I said, and I quote, "Consider this topic closed." That was Marc's warning.
> 
> 
>> > Since there was no warning, there was none to
>> > ignore,
>> > therefore this action is against established policy.
> 
> 
> Marc is not a child. He knows damn well that "Consider this topic
> closed" means "Don't post any more messages or there may be
> repercussions." We don't have to spell everything out for a grown man.
> 
> 
>> > the list, "In the interest of full disclosure".  Why
>> > should he?  He is simply using his power to silence
>> > me.
> 
> 
> What has happened to Marc has been agreed upon by 4 people, including
> myself. Why does Marc attack only me? Silence him? You're damn right.
> When he has nothing better to do than take personal fights and make
> them public?
> 
> 
>> > And if at any point in the future someone considers
>> > moving to any forum run by Ryan, they know who they
>> > are dealing with.
> 
> 
> I am going to make public every private message sent between Marc and
> I these past few days so that you will all know exactly who you are
> dealing with. These messages will follow this posting.
> 
> Enjoy the discussion. If the rest of the membership becomes pissed off
> at having to read this bullshit and unsubscribes, you know who you can
> thank.
> 
> -Ryan
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 


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