Re: R12 and R134 A/C Refrigerant Alternative

["therealdmcvegas" <DMCVegas@xxxx>]

--- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Richard" <dmc_driver@xxxx> wrote:
> Hello list,
> 
> Check out www.duracool.com. I was wondering if anyone has used this
> in the Delorean or any other car for that matter, and if so, how well
> does it work? 
> 
> Richard Rowe
> vin 5853


--- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Richard" <dmc_driver@xxxx> wrote:
> Hello list,
> 
> Check out www.duracool.com. I was wondering if anyone has used this
> in the Delorean or any other car for that matter, and if so, how well
> does it work? 
> 
> Richard Rowe
> vin 5853

This is one of the biggest debates about MVAC systems, as I discovered
(I'll be doing a total A/C rebuild on my car in the future, so I've
been reading up on alternatives).

The first page says it all, "Hydrocarbon Refrigerant." In comparison
to R-12, and R-134a, HC Refrigerants will cool just as efficiently,
and are truly ozone friendly. Plus they're inexpensive, and are pretty
much non-corrosive from what I understand. On the plus side, everyone
whom I've ever heard from that has actually used an HC refrigerant in
thier car/truck has had nothing but praise for them. I've never heard
anything negative about them performance wise.

However, HydroCarbons are of course quite flammable. After all, HC
chains are what make up methane, petrol/gasoline, motor oil, diesel
fuel, etc... Hence why auto manufacturers are not allowed to use HC
Refrigerants in car air conditioners.


Now, on to the educational part of the post.

A study on the use of HC Refrigerants down in Austrailia, found that
the only threat for flammability comes from improper handling of the
gas when filling the MVAC system on a car. And that if a leak does
occur, the gas disperses too quickly to ignite. This theory was tested
both with cars that have been in real life collisions, to tests of
holding heting elements next to leaks of HC refrigerants in controled
experiments failed to ignite the gas. The test involved a number of
cars that have racked up a combined total of over a million miles, and
never encountered a problem (I'll have to find the link on that one,
but it does exist).

But because the gas used is flamable, that's why automakers are
prohibited from utilizing it in new cars. It is believed that there is
a significant risk of fire. Which is interesting, because while I too
have always heard of this risk, I've never actually seen a car ignite
from using HC Refrigerants. And me personally, I'm more frightened
about when Hydrogen cars hit the road (SUV's are bad enough, I don't
need some "Soccer Mom" piloting the Hindenburg in the lane next to me).

Flamability has always been a concern with refrigeration systems. The
earliest ones themselves utilizing flammable/dangerous chemicals such
as ammonia to operate. Which is why R-12 was so well recieved, as it
was harder to ignite, and more specificly, was no where near of a
health hazzard if it leaked out (Note: "Freon" is NOT a specific type
of refrigerant. It is simply a brand-name used by DuPont to
trademark/single out their product. The same way we all refer to
facial tissues as "Kleenex"). However, R-12 of course was deemed to be
destructive to the Ozone layer, due to the use of 
Chloro-Fluoral-Carbons. It rips apart Ozone molecules (O3) in a
repetative cycle, untill it is destroyed by UV radiation. So since
something needed to be done, and quick, R-134a became a replacement.

But, R-134a still isn't the solution. It was only inteded as a bandage
to get the industry along until something better came along. It's a
Hydro-Fluoro-Carbon (HFC), so no, it doesn't damage the ozone as bad.
But, since it doesn't break apart as easy as CFC's molecules do, nor
are it's elements as easily destroyed by UV light, it's a VERY nasty
greenhouse gas! So don't think that just because R-134a is "safer"
than R-12 that it's ok to vent it into the atmosphere.

>From what I've read in an automotive trade paper, R-134a will probably
be phazed out within 10 years or more. Allot of research is being put
into utilizing Carbondioxide as a refrigerant to replace everything
else in cars.

Oh, and one more thing. While HydroCarbon Refrigerants are flammable,
R-12. & R-134a are actually flammable as well. But when they burn,
they produce Mustard gas! So while automanufactures, and DuPont have
their beliefs, I guess you've just got to choose the lesser of two evils.

-Robert
vin 6585 "X"