Re: R12 and R134 A/C Refrigerant Alternative

["cruznmd" <racuti1@xxxx>]

:)

Actually, when R-12, R-114 and R-134a are burned, they don't create 
mustard gas, they create phoszgine gas which is colorless, odorless 
but totally toxic.

On submarines, when we have a freon leak, we secure all heat 
producing equipment and smoking (talk about whining) because of this.
Not to mention that freon itself is dangerous to breathe and it's 
heavier than air so it displaces our atmosphere on the lower levels.

I spent 31 days in a freon-rich atmosphere because we were in a "bad 
place" surrounded by "bad people" and couldn't vent it. Talk about a 
headache. We had to eat cold cuts for a month because we couldn't 
cook.

The point of this history lesson though, is to point out that it's 
bad for us amatuer mechanics to heat freon of any flavor. Especially 
in a confined space such as your car-hole. So....be careful!

--- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "therealdmcvegas" <DMCVegas@xxxx> 
wrote:
> --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Richard" <dmc_driver@xxxx> wrote:
> > Hello list,
> > 
> > Check out www.duracool.com. I was wondering if anyone has used 
this
> > in the Delorean or any other car for that matter, and if so, how 
well
> > does it work? 
> > 
> > Richard Rowe
> > vin 5853
> 
> 
> --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Richard" <dmc_driver@xxxx> wrote:
> > Hello list,
> > 
> > Check out www.duracool.com. I was wondering if anyone has used 
this
> > in the Delorean or any other car for that matter, and if so, how 
well
> > does it work? 
> > 
> > Richard Rowe
> > vin 5853
> 
> This is one of the biggest debates about MVAC systems, as I 
discovered
> (I'll be doing a total A/C rebuild on my car in the future, so I've
> been reading up on alternatives).
> 
> The first page says it all, "Hydrocarbon Refrigerant." In comparison
> to R-12, and R-134a, HC Refrigerants will cool just as efficiently,
> and are truly ozone friendly. Plus they're inexpensive, and are 
pretty
> much non-corrosive from what I understand. On the plus side, 
everyone
> whom I've ever heard from that has actually used an HC refrigerant 
in
> thier car/truck has had nothing but praise for them. I've never 
heard
> anything negative about them performance wise.
> 
> However, HydroCarbons are of course quite flammable. After all, HC
> chains are what make up methane, petrol/gasoline, motor oil, diesel
> fuel, etc... Hence why auto manufacturers are not allowed to use HC
> Refrigerants in car air conditioners.
> 
> 
> Now, on to the educational part of the post.
> 
> A study on the use of HC Refrigerants down in Austrailia, found that
> the only threat for flammability comes from improper handling of the
> gas when filling the MVAC system on a car. And that if a leak does
> occur, the gas disperses too quickly to ignite. This theory was 
tested
> both with cars that have been in real life collisions, to tests of
> holding heting elements next to leaks of HC refrigerants in 
controled
> experiments failed to ignite the gas. The test involved a number of
> cars that have racked up a combined total of over a million miles, 
and
> never encountered a problem (I'll have to find the link on that one,
> but it does exist).
> 
> But because the gas used is flamable, that's why automakers are
> prohibited from utilizing it in new cars. It is believed that there 
is
> a significant risk of fire. Which is interesting, because while I 
too
> have always heard of this risk, I've never actually seen a car 
ignite
> from using HC Refrigerants. And me personally, I'm more frightened
> about when Hydrogen cars hit the road (SUV's are bad enough, I don't
> need some "Soccer Mom" piloting the Hindenburg in the lane next to 
me).
> 
> Flamability has always been a concern with refrigeration systems. 
The
> earliest ones themselves utilizing flammable/dangerous chemicals 
such
> as ammonia to operate. Which is why R-12 was so well recieved, as it
> was harder to ignite, and more specificly, was no where near of a
> health hazzard if it leaked out (Note: "Freon" is NOT a specific 
type
> of refrigerant. It is simply a brand-name used by DuPont to
> trademark/single out their product. The same way we all refer to
> facial tissues as "Kleenex"). However, R-12 of course was deemed to 
be
> destructive to the Ozone layer, due to the use of 
> Chloro-Fluoral-Carbons. It rips apart Ozone molecules (O3) in a
> repetative cycle, untill it is destroyed by UV radiation. So since
> something needed to be done, and quick, R-134a became a replacement.
> 
> But, R-134a still isn't the solution. It was only inteded as a 
bandage
> to get the industry along until something better came along. It's a
> Hydro-Fluoro-Carbon (HFC), so no, it doesn't damage the ozone as 
bad.
> But, since it doesn't break apart as easy as CFC's molecules do, nor
> are it's elements as easily destroyed by UV light, it's a VERY nasty
> greenhouse gas! So don't think that just because R-134a is "safer"
> than R-12 that it's ok to vent it into the atmosphere.
> 
> From what I've read in an automotive trade paper, R-134a will 
probably
> be phazed out within 10 years or more. Allot of research is being 
put
> into utilizing Carbondioxide as a refrigerant to replace everything
> else in cars.
> 
> Oh, and one more thing. While HydroCarbon Refrigerants are 
flammable,
> R-12. & R-134a are actually flammable as well. But when they burn,
> they produce Mustard gas! So while automanufactures, and DuPont have
> their beliefs, I guess you've just got to choose the lesser of two 
evils.
> 
> -Robert
> vin 6585 "X"