To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Frame Restoration
From: "Paul Salsbury" <paul.salsbury@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
2. hissing Mode switch
From: Phil Priestley <phil@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
3. Re: Testing for ignition voltage
From: "content22207" <brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
4. Re: One more thing - Monster garage
From: wingd2@xxxxxxx
5. One More Time
From: "Scott Cagle" <dmc83n99@xxxxxxx>
6. RE: CPR and Right Angle Drive needed
From: "John Hervey" <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
7. idle problem
From: "checksix3" <jetjock11@xxxxxxxx>
8. Texas All British Car Weekend - Sept 27 & 28th, 2003
From: James Espey <james@xxxxxxxxxx>
9. RE: Heater Core Shut Off Valve Xref
From: "John Hervey" <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
10. Re: Still hot start problem
From: "Harold McElraft" <hmcelraft@xxxxxxx>
11. Re: HOWTO #9 injector replacment
From: "Harold McElraft" <hmcelraft@xxxxxxx>
12. RE: idle problem
From: "John Hervey" <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
13. Re: Heater Core Shut Off Valve Xref
From: "Harold McElraft" <hmcelraft@xxxxxxx>
14. Window Motor Problem
From: "delorean_canada" <universalstudios@xxxxxxxxxxx>
15. Re: One more thing - Monster garage
From: "erikgeerdink" <erikgeerdink@xxxxxxxxx>
16. Tuning Idle Speed Circuit. (was: Re: idle problem)
From: "therealdmcvegas" <DMCVegas@xxxxxxxx>
17. Lambda system troubleshooting
From: "cruznmd" <racuti1@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
18. Re: Tuning Idle Speed Circuit. (was: Re: idle problem)
From: "content22207" <brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
19. Re: Heater Core Shut Off Valve Xref
From: "content22207" <brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
20. google this:
From: "K. Creason" <dmc4687@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
21. Tuning Idle Speed Circuit. (was: Re: idle problem)
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty@xxxxxxxxxxx>
22. Re: hissing Mode switch
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty@xxxxxxxxxxx>
23. RE: Window Motor Problem
From: "Scott McMullan" <mcmullan@xxxxxxxxxx>
24. Idle speed
From: "checksix3" <jetjock11@xxxxxxxx>
25. Re: Tuning Idle Speed Circuit. (was: Re: idle problem)
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:07:59 +0100
From: "Paul Salsbury" <paul.salsbury@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Frame Restoration
Check out my site for starters
Paul
www.paul.salsbury.btinternet.co.uk
----- Original Message -----
From: "anaheim_21" <anaheim_21@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: 27 August 2003 15:40
Subject: [DML] Frame Restoration
> Hello All:
>
> Next summer I want to fix up my frame, re-epoxy it, etc. Has anyone
> attempted this? What is a good plan of action when undertaking this
> task?
>
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderators@xxxxxxxxxxx
>
> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see
www.dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:58:58 -0700
From: Phil Priestley <phil@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: hissing Mode switch
*This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate(tm) Pro*
I'm always hearing talk of mode switches hissing. Mine only hisses when
I trun the climate control to the off position. Other than than it
dosn't hiss. Is this the norm or is it leaking
Phil Priestley
Alessandros 120
(503)370-9951
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:30:41 -0000
From: "content22207" <brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Testing for ignition voltage
Can also use timing light for same purpose. In fact, timing chains and
harmonic balancers are all so old on my Lincolns (requires timing by
ear) that is primary use of my light now.
Shocked ever living mess out of myself once. Will never it again.
Won't even turn distributor by hand (unless distributor so sticky you
need hammer & screwdriver, turn engine off first).
Bill Robertson
#5939
>--- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "therealdmcvegas" <DMCVegas@xxxx> wrote:
> --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Travis Goodwin <tgoodwin@xxxx> wrote:
> > I traced my non-start problem back to the coil. I pulled the coil
> wire and
> > looked for a spark to jump the gap. Nothing.
> <SNIP>
>
> Be careful! The potential for shock is dangerous as all hell! You can
> easily get killed, or maimed! If not by the shock itself, it can be
> anything dangerous that you'll hit when you jump back!
>
> If you need to check for spark, pull a sparkplug wire off, and
> connect it to a another sparkplug, and lay it on the intake manifold.
> That'll create a ground, and you can SAFELY view the spark jumping
> the gap. Otherwise, I found a tool @ Pep Boys that allows you to view
> spark on the coil wire by touching the sheilding with it. It looks
> like an ink pen, and contains a small tube with neon gas that
> illuminates when voltage goes thru the wire.
>
>
> > When I go to start the car I am assuming I should have 12V across
> the coil,
> > which I do not at the moment. I checked voltage on the right side.
> The
> > voltage from the resistor is ok and I have continuity and ground to
> the
> > capacitor. The trouble seems to be on the left side. I've got
> nothing coming
> > from the White/Slate wire that leads to the ignition control behind
> the
> > driver's seat.
> <SNIP>
>
> The White/Slate colored wire delivers impulses from the Distributor.
> The Distributor rotates, and creates the pulses. These pulses are
> then used to trip the RPM relay, drive the Tach, and supply engine
> speed info to the Ignition ECU, and the Ignition coil. If the motor
> is stopped, you won't recieve any voltage/signal on this line.
>
> Which reminds me. When you tested for voltage output from the
> Ignition Coil, were you cranking the motor, did you have the RPM
> relay jumped, or was the motor off?
>
> -Robert
> vin 6585 "X"
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:13:09 EDT
From: wingd2@xxxxxxx
Subject: Re: One more thing - Monster garage
As a member of the Monster Garage build team, I'd like the say THANKS !!!
to Rich for spending the immense amount of time and effort that went into
putting all of this together. Even as a part of the team, I don't think I really
have an understanding of what Rich had to go thru to accomplish what he did.
The Monster Garage producer who was in charge of this "shoot" at Dave's shop
during this build was telling us that the Monster Garage people get over 5000
applications and videos a month from people who want to be on this show. For Rich
to get himself and us chosen as one of two teams from all across the USA to
work on this new pilot series says a lot about his drive and determination. And
even tho the Delorean automobile was not the main focus of this show, it must
be realized that the Delorean auto and the associations we have all made with
each other because of this car were one of the main driving forces behind
Rich even attempting this project. Actually having the Deloreans make it onto the
TV show was just a big plus.
And like Rich said, the one other person who needs a special THANKS !!!
in all of this is Dave's wife Julee. She was the one who keep us all on track
when things got "interesting" towards the end of the 4 day sleepless marathon.
Thanks again !
Rich, just tell me where and when and I'll be happy to help with the next
project. It seems getting together with a group of Delorean owners is always
an interesting and great time !
Later, Marty
--- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "d_rex_2002" <rich@xxxx> wrote:
> List,
>
> Dave Swingle hit most of the main points about the show and how it is
produced, with very little control of content by the build team.
>
> The show was just the validation of the time and effort put in by
> myself and both the build team and support team. Many people do
> not realize that it took over 5 months of countless e-mails, calls
> and FedEx packages of propaganda to make this show a reality.
>
> Another big thanks to Julee for letting Dave build that huge garage
> and for putting up with us for a few weeks, before, during and after.
>
> Let me know when you guys are ready to build the next project.
>
> Later,
> Rich W.
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:51:42 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: "Scott Cagle" <dmc83n99@xxxxxxx>
Subject: One More Time
Now that my system is finally up and stable, I'm trying to compile a new
list of owners in the area. Would anyone in the gulf coastal area of
Florida, Alabama, and Mississippi please contact me at dmc83n99@xxxxxxx off
list? Thanks!!
Scott
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:02:49 -0700
From: "John Hervey" <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: CPR and Right Angle Drive needed
Erik, I have both.
John hervey
-----Original Message-----
From: erikgeerdink [mailto:erikgeerdink@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 5:16 AM
To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [DML] CPR and Right Angle Drive needed
Does anyone have a perfect condition CPR and/or a right angle drive
for sale? If so, please let me know. We could do a cash deal or
trade for parts.
Thanks,
Erik
To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderators@xxxxxxxxxxx
For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
To search the archives or view files, log in at
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________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 22:23:47 -0000
From: "checksix3" <jetjock11@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: idle problem
...I have yet to see the proper way to set up the idle speed system
(the Bosch recommended method) in any post or archive. As long as you
have no air leaks and your CO is set closely this will solve all idle
hunting...period. Some airflow trough the throttle body and metering
plate is required for the system to work properly. This is obvious if
the conductance of the system is measured.
Opening the loop by disconnecting the engine speed input variable
(pin 12) on the idle ECU while keeping the idle switch closed and
forcing the CIS motor to it's basic default position is the key to
proper setup of the CIS system. (This is also a convienent method of
setting manual idle if you prefer not to use the CIS, although the
switch only needs to be kept closed during setup.) You should also
test the components before you attempt setup to be sure they're
working.
I also point out an open circuit or high value in the CIS warm up
thermistor will cause a default idle speed of appx 2000 rpm. Be sure
this circuit is not open. Jumper it (or measure it) at the ECU if you
have a doubt, zero ohms or any value below appx 10K will ensure the
ECU setpoint is 775 rpm.
Fwiw, my car idles perfectly, hot or cold, from the moment it's
started.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:31:14 -0500
From: James Espey <james@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Texas All British Car Weekend - Sept 27 & 28th, 2003
Last year's show near Austin marked the first appearance of DeLorean's at
this show, and we were able to draw ten cars for this event. I'd like to see
an equal number or better turn out this year, too!
Last years poker rally was a LOT of fun, and the dinner that followed at the
lake near Austin was a great setting. More details can be found here:
or contact me directly at james (at) usadmc.com for more information.
James Espey
DeLorean Motor Company
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:45:49 -0700
From: "John Hervey" <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: Heater Core Shut Off Valve Xref
Bill, I think the last time I heard the sucking sound was when our friend in
Dallas H. Ross Perot was running for the Presidental office and was against
Nafta and he kept refering to all the business going to Mexico and a big
sucking sound out of the U.S.
The current amount consumed by the ECU's and Idle speed motor almost less
than a brake light or two. Did you know or think about it. A 24 watt brake
light at 12 volts is 2amps. When you step on the brakes with the blinker on
at night your drawing almost 8 to 10 amps. I posted information on the DML
last year about the current draw. There are good lower current bulbs to over
come 1/2 of the currrent drawn in the explaination above.
John Hervey
www.specialtauto.com
I need old spark plug wires.
-----Original Message-----
From: content22207 [mailto:brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 11:31 PM
To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [DML] Heater Core Shut Off Valve Xref
Just bought a 5/8" heater core shut off valve for one of my Lincolns.
100% match to stock DeLo. Little more expensive than the single piece
tower, but I figured car was worth it:
Factory Air #74671
$26 at AutozoneAdvance also sells Factory Air
Re: Lambda ECU thread -- have finally removed mine from car (no
frequency valve). As far as I know is still good. Am trying to trade
with a vendor for spare Bosch plug wire (or two). If that transaction
doesn't materialize will make same deal to anyone on list...
O2 sensor already given away.
BTW: anyone know how much juice Lamda and idle speed ECU's suck up? Am
hoping removal reduces alternator load. Have been told onboard
electronics are reason for today's big alternators, but I still
suspect coil packs have something to do with it.
Bill Robertson
#5939
To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderators@xxxxxxxxxxx
For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
To search the archives or view files, log in at
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________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:03:46 -0000
From: "Harold McElraft" <hmcelraft@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Still hot start problem
You have lost "rest" fuel pressure. The only way to know where is to
have the fuel guage put on it and check the pressures. If you put on
a NOS (new old stock) accumulator I would suspect it is no good.
Harold McElraft - 3354
--- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "armac.rm" <armac@xxxx> wrote:
> When my D gets hot it does not like to start. Have replaced the
> injectors, fuel dist.,and fuel accumulator. Before the accumulator
> was replaced I could fire the cold start injector the car would
start
> and run. After it was replaced the car ran good for about 3 drive
> cycles and now it will only start if I spray a little
gas,WD40,ect..
> into to the engine while cranking then it will start and run fine.
> But this ONLY has to be done after the engine had been runing,
never
> cold. Thinking the fuel pump intake hose might be the problem. Any
> ideas before I have to empty a full tank of gas?
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 11
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:38:25 -0000
From: "Harold McElraft" <hmcelraft@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: HOWTO #9 injector replacment
I echo Richard's comments; I think the How-To's are great. I am
impressed you have gone to so much trouble. They are well done.
Harold McElraft - 3354
--- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Richard" <dmc_driver@xxxx> wrote:
> --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, jordan rubin
<nuttenschleuder@xxxx> wrote:
> > Hello all:
> >
> > Here comes #9 the fuel injector replacment howto.
> >
> > http://retroserver.no-ip.com/delorean/fuelinjector.html
> >
> > comments, feedback, does anyone read this stuff?
>
>
> Yes, I read this stuff often. These How-To's are very well done.
> Thanks for all the time and effort to put these together for all
of us
> to benefit from. Keep up the great work!
>
> Richard
> vin 5853
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 12
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:56:40 -0700
From: "John Hervey" <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: idle problem
If you will follow the link to the web site, it will show you how to set the
idle. I would set it 950. 775 is to low. About middle of the page.
John Hervey
http://www.specialtauto.com/delorean-parts/reference-materials.html
-----Original Message-----
From: checksix3 [mailto:jetjock11@xxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 3:24 PM
To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [DML] idle problem
...I have yet to see the proper way to set up the idle speed system
(the Bosch recommended method) in any post or archive. As long as you
have no air leaks and your CO is set closely this will solve all idle
hunting...period. Some airflow trough the throttle body and metering
plate is required for the system to work properly. This is obvious if
the conductance of the system is measured.
Opening the loop by disconnecting the engine speed input variable
(pin 12) on the idle ECU while keeping the idle switch closed and
forcing the CIS motor to it's basic default position is the key to
proper setup of the CIS system. (This is also a convienent method of
setting manual idle if you prefer not to use the CIS, although the
switch only needs to be kept closed during setup.) You should also
test the components before you attempt setup to be sure they're
working.
I also point out an open circuit or high value in the CIS warm up
thermistor will cause a default idle speed of appx 2000 rpm. Be sure
this circuit is not open. Jumper it (or measure it) at the ECU if you
have a doubt, zero ohms or any value below appx 10K will ensure the
ECU setpoint is 775 rpm.
Fwiw, my car idles perfectly, hot or cold, from the moment it's
started.
To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderators@xxxxxxxxxxx
For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
To search the archives or view files, log in at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 13
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:32:56 -0000
From: "Harold McElraft" <hmcelraft@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Heater Core Shut Off Valve Xref
Bill
RE: the engine management removal - At the rate and direction you
are going I expect to hear you're running leaded gas next. What
about the pollution the engine may putting out?
Harold McElraft - 3354
-- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "content22207" <brobertson@xxxx>
wrote:
> Just bought a 5/8" heater core shut off valve for one of my
Lincolns.
> 100% match to stock DeLo. Little more expensive than the single
piece
> tower, but I figured car was worth it:
>
> Factory Air #74671
> $26 at AutozoneAdvance also sells Factory Air
>
> Re: Lambda ECU thread -- have finally removed mine from car (no
> frequency valve). As far as I know is still good. Am trying to
trade
> with a vendor for spare Bosch plug wire (or two). If that
transaction
> doesn't materialize will make same deal to anyone on list...
>
> O2 sensor already given away.
>
> BTW: anyone know how much juice Lamda and idle speed ECU's suck
up? Am
> hoping removal reduces alternator load. Have been told onboard
> electronics are reason for today's big alternators, but I still
> suspect coil packs have something to do with it.
>
> Bill Robertson
> #5939
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 14
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:56:50 -0000
From: "delorean_canada" <universalstudios@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Window Motor Problem
Hello all!
I searched the archived posts but couldn't really find a similar
problem...anyhoo, here is my little problem. My diver's side window
will not open anymore. It has never made any strange noises or
anything, it just quit! I've tested the driver side switch on the
passinger side and it worked great. I tested the wires to make sure
the motor is getting power and it is. Now, when I try to open the
window the motor always makes a clicking sound and that is all it
will do. Does it sound like I need a new motor? Thanks in advance
to all who will respond :)
Steven
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 15
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:12:00 -0000
From: "erikgeerdink" <erikgeerdink@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: One more thing - Monster garage
I don't have cable. Has anyone recorded this and put it on the
internet yet? If so I'd really love to see it! Sounds like you all
had a great time. I hope next time you guys get together, if you
have room, I'd love to come help in anyway I can!
Erik
04512
--- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, wingd2@xxxx wrote:
> As a member of the Monster Garage build team, I'd like the say
THANKS !!!
> to Rich for spending the immense amount of time and effort that
went into
> putting all of this together. Even as a part of the team, I don't
think I really
> have an understanding of what Rich had to go thru to accomplish
what he did.
> The Monster Garage producer who was in charge of this "shoot" at
Dave's shop
> during this build was telling us that the Monster Garage people
get over 5000
> applications and videos a month from people who want to be on this
show. For Rich
> to get himself and us chosen as one of two teams from all across
the USA to
> work on this new pilot series says a lot about his drive and
determination. And
> even tho the Delorean automobile was not the main focus of this
show, it must
> be realized that the Delorean auto and the associations we have
all made with
> each other because of this car were one of the main driving forces
behind
> Rich even attempting this project. Actually having the Deloreans
make it onto the
> TV show was just a big plus.
>
> And like Rich said, the one other person who needs a special
THANKS !!!
> in all of this is Dave's wife Julee. She was the one who keep us
all on track
> when things got "interesting" towards the end of the 4 day
sleepless marathon.
> Thanks again !
>
> Rich, just tell me where and when and I'll be happy to help
with the next
> project. It seems getting together with a group of Delorean owners
is always
> an interesting and great time !
>
> Later, Marty
>
>
>
>
> --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "d_rex_2002" <rich@xxxx> wrote:
> > List,
> >
> > Dave Swingle hit most of the main points about the show and how
it is
> produced, with very little control of content by the build team.
> >
> > The show was just the validation of the time and effort put in by
> > myself and both the build team and support team. Many people do
> > not realize that it took over 5 months of countless e-mails,
calls
> > and FedEx packages of propaganda to make this show a reality.
> >
> > Another big thanks to Julee for letting Dave build that huge
garage
> > and for putting up with us for a few weeks, before, during and
after.
> >
> > Let me know when you guys are ready to build the next project.
> >
> > Later,
> > Rich W.
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 16
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:34:34 -0000
From: "therealdmcvegas" <DMCVegas@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: Tuning Idle Speed Circuit. (was: Re: idle problem)
--- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "checksix3" <jetjock11@xxxx> wrote:
> ...I have yet to see the proper way to set up the idle speed system
> (the Bosch recommended method) in any post or archive.
<SNIP>
I know I've seen the procedure before, but I can't remember if it was
here, or off list in a private e-mail. but I believe the procedure was
to open the first/main screw by giving it 4 equal turns, then give
each throttle tube 2 screws. Then just fiddle with the main screw to
set the idle.
>As long as you
> have no air leaks and your CO is set closely this will solve all idle
> hunting...period. Some airflow trough the throttle body and metering
> plate is required for the system to work properly. This is obvious if
> the conductance of the system is measured.
<SNIP>
Well, um. This is true, but only dependng upon your point of view. The
Idle Speed Motor does a fine job of setting the idle speed, and of
maintaing it. But as I found on my car, only when you drive gently.
If the engine is at a high rev (usually about 4K or more RPMs), then
when you push the clutch in to drop (or let off the gas on an auto
from my experience), the RPMs will fall VERY quickly. In my case, I
had two senarios: I'd would either kill the motor occasionally, or
mostly I would just strain the hell out of my electrical system. Dim
lights, dropping volts, you name it. This was compound at night when I
had the clearance and headlights on. And if the A/C was running, then
forget it. I could drop my RPMs low enough that battery light would
flicker, of not kill the motor again.
Now I had to compensate on my car to bend the bracket for the Idle
Speed Microswitch, and extending the stop bolt on the throttle
assembly. This now causes my Idle Speed Circuit to trip early, and
activate the ICM so that it will open early enough so the engine
doesn't dip too low, and I keep my electrical system stable.
However, there has of course been a trade off. I now have no gradual
powerband. Gently pressing my acellerator pedal, The ISM then tries to
compensate for a "fast idle" by choking my engine, rather than
allowing me to add the extra airflow to my acelleration. Once the
Microswitch is deactivated, my RPMs then jump to 1,500! Not really
fun, since it makes my clutch a bit "grabby" IMO, but nothing really
damaging. Just annoying.
The other problem with the Idle Speed Circuit is that it doesn't like
to work well with a motor that's not properly tuned. If you do have a
vaccum leak, or you're running rich, then the idle seeking/hunting
will of course occur (that's the LAMBDA system cycling). However, the
Idle Speed Circuit seems to compound this problem. Instead of suttely
compensating the ISM to gently stabilize the idle, it likes to panic.
Anyone who's had a vaccum/mixture problem, and has tried to start
their car on a cold morning know exactly what I mean. The ISM goes
"WOT" to increase the speed. And when it gets too high, it goes
"Choke". And when the RPMs drop too low, it goes "WOT" again. This
cycle occurs until the engine finally warms up and/or the fuel mixture
is balanced.
Now with this said, don't think that I'm putting the stock Idle Speed
Circuit down. On the contrary, I think that to remove it is perhaps
one of the worst mistakes that you could make. However, I do feel that
as great of a system that it is, that it needs to be supplemented. And
that is where setting the Engine Idle Speed manually comes into play.
By setting the initial Engine Idle Speed manually with the 3 brass
screws, we create a "pillow" of sorts for the engine speed. The idle
should stay far more stable. When the RPMs drop hard, the engine isn't
going to have to wait for the ISM to activate, and open up to feed the
engine air. When cold starting, the idle seeking should be kept to a
minimum by way of a solid supply of air keeping the RPMs from dipping
too low. And of course, strains on the cars electrical system could
greatly be quelled. Extending the life of your Alternator and Voltage
Regulator, and keeping the motor from stalling out in some cases. And
of course, you can keep the lights bright. Another thing is that this
should hopefully reduce engine noise a bit. When my motor is cold, the
sound of extra air rushing thru the ISM, and the brass tube is quite
noticeble.
Now, if there is any downside to utilizing the Manual portion of the
Idle Speed Circuit, then please, let me know. I myself really don't
see any harm in using it. Only benefit. And everything that I've read
against it has been mainly along the lines of, "You shouldn't need
to.", and "The manual doesn't say it's nessisary." I understand both
these points, but in using the Brass Screws, I really only see how it
can improve upon the existing system.
-Robert
vin 6585 "X"
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 17
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:36:28 -0000
From: "cruznmd" <racuti1@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Lambda system troubleshooting
Can someone please post or email me the O2 sensor voltage outputs?
I've put in 2 sensors and my dwell meter indicates the following:
The lambda operates correctly at the fixed value when the sensor is
cold or disconnected.
When the sensor warms up, I get about 1 minute of good readings where
if I'm fast, I may get to adjust the CO screw.
1 minute later, the meter (and idle) surge and seek over half the
scale. Actually, the idle surge is small but imagine what it does to
your fuel economy.
I'm always told the computers don't fail but 2 sensors later...
Anyway, I'd like the O2 sensor voltages so I can at least tell if I'm
rich when idling.
Thanks,
Rich
#5335
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 18
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:51:20 -0000
From: "content22207" <brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Tuning Idle Speed Circuit. (was: Re: idle problem)
Is actually a bit more sophisticated than that:
Screw closest to air sensor plate lets air into idle circuit. Is where
final idle speed will be set at end of process.
Middle screw balances passenger side of engine.
Screw closest to U pipes balances driver side.
Need to balance both sides of engine for best idle. Will be similar
number of turns, but not necessarily identical.
Standing offer remains: have manual idle circuit setup procedure from
Volvo newsgroup I will send to anyone interested
(brobertson(at)carolina.net).
Fully agree that properly functioning automatic idle speed circuit is
hottest thing since sliced bread. Unfortunately mine wasn't
functioning properly. Actually became outright schizophrenic. Don't
miss it one bit.
Bill Robertson
#5939
>--- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "therealdmcvegas" <DMCVegas@xxxx> wrote:
> --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "checksix3" <jetjock11@xxxx> wrote:
> > ...I have yet to see the proper way to set up the idle speed system
> > (the Bosch recommended method) in any post or archive.
> <SNIP>
>
> I know I've seen the procedure before, but I can't remember if it was
> here, or off list in a private e-mail. but I believe the procedure was
> to open the first/main screw by giving it 4 equal turns, then give
> each throttle tube 2 screws. Then just fiddle with the main screw to
> set the idle.
>
> >As long as you
> > have no air leaks and your CO is set closely this will solve all idle
> > hunting...period. Some airflow trough the throttle body and metering
> > plate is required for the system to work properly. This is obvious if
> > the conductance of the system is measured.
> <SNIP>
>
> Well, um. This is true, but only dependng upon your point of view. The
> Idle Speed Motor does a fine job of setting the idle speed, and of
> maintaing it. But as I found on my car, only when you drive gently.
>
> If the engine is at a high rev (usually about 4K or more RPMs), then
> when you push the clutch in to drop (or let off the gas on an auto
> from my experience), the RPMs will fall VERY quickly. In my case, I
> had two senarios: I'd would either kill the motor occasionally, or
> mostly I would just strain the hell out of my electrical system. Dim
> lights, dropping volts, you name it. This was compound at night when I
> had the clearance and headlights on. And if the A/C was running, then
> forget it. I could drop my RPMs low enough that battery light would
> flicker, of not kill the motor again.
>
> Now I had to compensate on my car to bend the bracket for the Idle
> Speed Microswitch, and extending the stop bolt on the throttle
> assembly. This now causes my Idle Speed Circuit to trip early, and
> activate the ICM so that it will open early enough so the engine
> doesn't dip too low, and I keep my electrical system stable.
>
> However, there has of course been a trade off. I now have no gradual
> powerband. Gently pressing my acellerator pedal, The ISM then tries to
> compensate for a "fast idle" by choking my engine, rather than
> allowing me to add the extra airflow to my acelleration. Once the
> Microswitch is deactivated, my RPMs then jump to 1,500! Not really
> fun, since it makes my clutch a bit "grabby" IMO, but nothing really
> damaging. Just annoying.
>
> The other problem with the Idle Speed Circuit is that it doesn't like
> to work well with a motor that's not properly tuned. If you do have a
> vaccum leak, or you're running rich, then the idle seeking/hunting
> will of course occur (that's the LAMBDA system cycling). However, the
> Idle Speed Circuit seems to compound this problem. Instead of suttely
> compensating the ISM to gently stabilize the idle, it likes to panic.
> Anyone who's had a vaccum/mixture problem, and has tried to start
> their car on a cold morning know exactly what I mean. The ISM goes
> "WOT" to increase the speed. And when it gets too high, it goes
> "Choke". And when the RPMs drop too low, it goes "WOT" again. This
> cycle occurs until the engine finally warms up and/or the fuel mixture
> is balanced.
>
>
> Now with this said, don't think that I'm putting the stock Idle Speed
> Circuit down. On the contrary, I think that to remove it is perhaps
> one of the worst mistakes that you could make. However, I do feel that
> as great of a system that it is, that it needs to be supplemented. And
> that is where setting the Engine Idle Speed manually comes into play.
>
> By setting the initial Engine Idle Speed manually with the 3 brass
> screws, we create a "pillow" of sorts for the engine speed. The idle
> should stay far more stable. When the RPMs drop hard, the engine isn't
> going to have to wait for the ISM to activate, and open up to feed the
> engine air. When cold starting, the idle seeking should be kept to a
> minimum by way of a solid supply of air keeping the RPMs from dipping
> too low. And of course, strains on the cars electrical system could
> greatly be quelled. Extending the life of your Alternator and Voltage
> Regulator, and keeping the motor from stalling out in some cases. And
> of course, you can keep the lights bright. Another thing is that this
> should hopefully reduce engine noise a bit. When my motor is cold, the
> sound of extra air rushing thru the ISM, and the brass tube is quite
> noticeble.
>
>
> Now, if there is any downside to utilizing the Manual portion of the
> Idle Speed Circuit, then please, let me know. I myself really don't
> see any harm in using it. Only benefit. And everything that I've read
> against it has been mainly along the lines of, "You shouldn't need
> to.", and "The manual doesn't say it's nessisary." I understand both
> these points, but in using the Brass Screws, I really only see how it
> can improve upon the existing system.
>
> -Robert
> vin 6585 "X"
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 19
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 03:05:34 -0000
From: "content22207" <brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Heater Core Shut Off Valve Xref
Drive a mile to and from work. Nothing in my little border town is
more than a mile from anything else. Probably produce less pollution
all year than a big city commuter stuck in traffic for one week.
I do not like onboard computers. Have seen them put drivers walking
too many times. Only electronics I want are in radio (and ignition --
breakerless indeed whoops points).
Note that my replacement engine came without Lamda. Has no plumbing
for it. ECU and O2 sensor were left over from original block. Made no
sense to leave in car.
Idle speed circuit went mad on me. Actually think may have been one
reason PO sold car. Manual circuit got me home. As far as I'm
concerned proved its worth.
Is actually more familiar to old head like me. I like adjusting
screws. Very similar to idle circuit on a carburetor. Is good thing
CIS so reliable, otherwise I'd be figuring out way to mount a square
bore on my air sensor plate!
BTW: I *STILL* need a used Bosch plug wire for home made replacement.
Anyone...
Bill Robertson
#5939
>--- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Harold McElraft" <hmcelraft@xxxx> wrote:
> Bill
>
> RE: the engine management removal - At the rate and direction you
> are going I expect to hear you're running leaded gas next. What
> about the pollution the engine may putting out?
>
> Harold McElraft - 3354
>
>
> -- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "content22207" <brobertson@xxxx>
> wrote:
> > Just bought a 5/8" heater core shut off valve for one of my
> Lincolns.
> > 100% match to stock DeLo. Little more expensive than the single
> piece
> > tower, but I figured car was worth it:
> >
> > Factory Air #74671
> > $26 at AutozoneAdvance also sells Factory Air
> >
> > Re: Lambda ECU thread -- have finally removed mine from car (no
> > frequency valve). As far as I know is still good. Am trying to
> trade
> > with a vendor for spare Bosch plug wire (or two). If that
> transaction
> > doesn't materialize will make same deal to anyone on list...
> >
> > O2 sensor already given away.
> >
> > BTW: anyone know how much juice Lamda and idle speed ECU's suck
> up? Am
> > hoping removal reduces alternator load. Have been told onboard
> > electronics are reason for today's big alternators, but I still
> > suspect coil packs have something to do with it.
> >
> > Bill Robertson
> > #5939
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 20
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:37:23 -0500
From: "K. Creason" <dmc4687@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: google this:
( OK, the 88 mph thing is close to what we're looking for. Moderator.)
Hey-- this is funny.
I was reading up on some of the expanded features of google (like
calculator) and found this on their help page:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=1.21+GW+%2F+88+mph
from here:
http://www.google.com/help/features.html
funny!
-Kevin
(yes, Mr. Moderator, it is just every so slightly delorean related; please
post anyway!)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 21
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 03:36:27 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Tuning Idle Speed Circuit. (was: Re: idle problem)
By allowing air to go through the "brass screws" or the manual idle
circuit you are reducing the amount of control that the idle motor has
over the idle speed. It cannot compensate (control) the idle as well.
In one sense it is like vacuum leaks. IMHO either stay with the idle
motor circuit or leave it, I don't see how you can have both. For what
it's worth I believe in trying to keep the car running with the stock
systems to the extent possible. No, I do not have a fan fail relay or
an origional lock module but I do have the idle set up as "normal"
(stock) and it is rock stable with the A/C, lights, hot, cold, in all
conditions. This is a result of a complete tune-up and fixing all
vacuum leaks and setting the motor up properly. I have done this on
several cars and I know it can be done. It isn't cheap, you have to
replace some 20 year old ignition parts and old rubber but it can be
done if you want to. The idle system CANNOT compensate for an out of
tune engine or worn parts. If you would rather toss the idle system
IMHO you give up a lot. The idle cannot compensate for varying loads
so if you want to run the A/C at idle now you are forced to raise the
idle so you don't kill the motor when you turn it on. In some States
(like New Jersey) you won't pass the emissions testing. Just My Humble
Opinion. Owners are free to choose what they want to do with their cars.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757
--- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "therealdmcvegas" <DMCVegas@xxxx> wrote:
> --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "checksix3" <jetjock11@xxxx> wrote:
> > ...I have yet to see the proper way to set up the idle speed system
> > (the Bosch recommended method) in any post or archive.
> <SNIP>
>
> I know I've seen the procedure before, but I can't remember if it was
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 22
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 03:42:21 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: hissing Mode switch
If it hisses in any position it is in need of at least lubrication.
The rubber disk has tiny channels in it and the edges wear. The best
thing to do is to just get a new one. It isn't that easy to get to the
mode switch so when you take it out you might just as well replace the
rubber part. The real problem here is when it is all dried up (after
20 years) and you turn it you run the risk of breaking the plastic
parts because it is so hard to turn. When done right it should turn
very smoothly and easily and not hiss in any position.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757
--- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Phil Priestley <phil@xxxx> wrote:
> *This message was transferred with a trial version of
CommuniGate(tm) Pro*
>
> I'm always hearing talk of mode switches hissing. Mine only hisses when
> I trun the climate control to the off position. Other than than it
> dosn't hiss. Is this the norm or is it leaking
>
>
>
>
>
> Phil Priestley
> Alessandros 120
> (503)370-9951
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 23
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:02:36 -0400
From: "Scott McMullan" <mcmullan@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: Window Motor Problem
I too am having trouble with my window. I'd like to check the poer to the
motor, but I don't know how to open up the door panel without doing
damage... Is there a door HOwTO out there that I've missed?
Thanks!
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 24
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:04:38 -0000
From: "checksix3" <jetjock11@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: Idle speed
>>The Idle Speed Motor does a fine job of setting the idle speed, and
of maintaing it. But as I found on my car, only when you drive
gently.<<
Thenn something is wrong with your car and you've compensated for it
by using the manual idle.
>>If the engine is at a high rev (usually about 4K or more RPMs), then
when you push the clutch in to drop (or let off the gas on an auto
from my experience), the RPMs will fall VERY quickly.<<
The CIS has nothing to do with this. Again, you have other problems.
I suggest you check your decel valves or throttle linkage setup.
My car (an auto) experiences none of these problems.
>>Now I had to compensate on my car to bend the bracket for the Idle
Speed Microswitch, and extending the stop bolt on the throttle
assembly. This now causes my Idle Speed Circuit to trip early, and
activate the ICM so that it will open early enough so the engine
doesn't dip too low, and I keep my electrical system stable.<<
Again, you need to find ths source of the orignal problem, not bend
things to fix it. How many other owners have had to do what you've
done?
>>However, there has of course been a trade off. I now have no gradual
powerband. Gently pressing my acellerator pedal, The ISM then tries to
compensate for a "fast idle" by choking my engine, rather than
allowing me to add the extra airflow to my acelleration. Once the
Microswitch is deactivated, my RPMs then jump to 1,500!<<
You clearly have something way out of whack and you're going about
fixing it the wrong way. Also, your statments imply you don't have a
full grasp of how the CIS system operates.
>>The other problem with the Idle Speed Circuit is that it doesn't
like to work well with a motor that's not properly tuned. If you do
have a vaccum leak, or you're running rich, then the idle
seeking/hunting will of course occur (that's the LAMBDA system
cycling).<<
Well, you need to tune your engine. And I said the engine must be in
good health with the CO set properly. The Lambda will cause a very
minor idle hunt of less than 50 rpms if everything is setup
correctly, or none at all if you chose to set it another way.
All the symptoms you described indicate other problems, your car
should do *none* of those things.
>>However, I do feel that as great of a system that it is, that it
needs to be supplemented.<<
Absolutely incorrect. It will perform flawlessly if set up properly,
as long as the engine has no major problems. I have mass flow
measured the CIS system know this to be true.
>By setting the initial Engine Idle Speed manually with the 3 brass
screws, we create a "pillow" of sorts for the engine speed. The idle
should stay far more stable.<
Yes, thats true (see below) but you're not setting it up correctly if
you use the brass screw to do that. It will work however but you
shouldn't be using the balancing screws at all.
>When the RPMs drop hard, the engine isn't going to have to wait for
the ISM to activate, and open up to feed the
engine air.<
The CIS valve sets to it's basic position as soon as you turn the
ignition on, before you start the engine, as long as the idle switch
is made. It only beccomes closed loop after ignition/tach impulses
arrive.
>>Now, if there is any downside to utilizing the Manual portion of the
Idle Speed Circuit, then please, let me know. I myself really don't
see any harm in using it. Only benefit.<<
No harm but as you say, you shouldn't need to do it. There is no
benefit to setting idle speed manually. It has no "improvement" over
a properly tuned CIS. You clearly have problems with your car.
>>>If you will follow the link to the web site, it will show you how
to set the idle. I would set it 950. 775 is to low. About middle of
the page.<<
John, your procedure is ok for manual idle but useless for CIS.
Again, you're chossing to set idle speed manually because of an
inability to correct for CIS problems. Sure, setting the idle
manually as you state can be done and 950 is fine for open loop
control. You will lose the benefits of closed loop control however.
As for 775 being to low, this setpoint is hardware built into the CIS
ECU and can only be altered by a component change. We're talking
apples to oranges, I'm talking about making the CIS work as it should
in full close loop. It *will* do this if set up correctly. But I'll
agree a higher idle is beneficial at times. My ECU has been modified
to increase idle rpm to 950 when the headlights, A/C or cooling fans
are on.
I see I'm dealing with shadetree mechanics and not engineers. The
point I'm making is to stop viewing this as a car part, the CIS is a
simple flow control loop. If you want a decent idle (assuming the
engine is in good health and your CO is set properly) you need to
prevent the CIS from controlling *all* the air that enters the
engine. CIS conductance is not effected by CPR control pressure and
that makes a big difference in mixture management.
By allowing the CIS to control all the air entering after the
throttle body you increase it's response (it's proportinal band, for
those of you who understand control theory) and this canlead to
oscillation. By allowing it to control a window around metered air
you decrease it's response to overshoot. Even the Volvo and Bosch CIS
setup procedures make this clear and it makes perfect sense. It's why
you set manual idle *higher* during setup than the CIS provided
setpoint. It's difficult to adjust or troubleshoot a feedback loop of
any kind when it's closed, thats why you need to open it for setup.
If you want to remove or plug the CIS path into the engine then yes,
you can use the brass idle set screw on the throttle body to set idle
speed. But if you prefer to leave the system in place a better way is
to force the CIS motor to it's default position. This is done by
removing the rpm input to the CIS ECU. The idle speed can then be set
by using the throttle plate stop screw while still allowing the CIS
motor valve to return to it's basic position whenever the throttle is
closed. It leaves the CIS system intact, albiet not closed loop
active. Either method is effective and either will give you a stable
manual idle, as will correct setup of the CIS. Why people disconnect
the system is beyond me, there are no benefits other than to hide the
root cause of problems.
I can spout all the theory on Earth but this isn't rocket science.
It's your choice to run your car anyway you wish, I offer this only
from a desire to demystify the CIS system and rebuke the long held
notion it doesn't work as designed. If your car hunts during idle it
shouldn't...period. Course, what do I know. Like I said, my D idles
and runs perfectly in all regimes and so does the other one I
maintain for a friend.
And what is all this I keep reading about vacuum leaks caused by bad
valve cover gaskets? There is no negative pressure with regard to
ambient under the valve covers, on the contrary...measure it and
you'll see.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 25
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:38:35 +0100
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Tuning Idle Speed Circuit. (was: Re: idle problem)
Let me try to help you understand... The Renault manual for the system
on our cars (common to the Renault 30) tells you how to balance the
banks on the screws, and give the engine enought to idle with *when
under no other load*. The idlespeed system then adjusts for additional
load on the alternator or by the ac compressor, and fluctuations in the
lambda system. Setting the engine up this way will prevent the
charachteristic hunting, and often will cure the "deep" hunting caused
by an over lean mixture, often still apparent on factory original cars.
I've shown my DMC workshop manual to my PRV guy and his comments (though
not very polite generally) were basically that Renault were pulling a
fast one on DMC because somebody didn't want to give them the proper manual!
Martin
David Teitelbaum wrote:
>By allowing air to go through the "brass screws" or the manual idle
>circuit you are reducing the amount of control that the idle motor has
>over the idle speed. It cannot compensate (control) the idle as well.
>In one sense it is like vacuum leaks. IMHO either stay with the idle
>motor circuit or leave it, I don't see how you can have both.
>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
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