[DML] Re: Noisy grounds, ground loop, and ground beef (or was that beef
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[DML] Re: Noisy grounds, ground loop, and ground beef (or was that beef with grounds?)



I'm trying to keep up with this thread because I actually did try this mod and wanted to know what others were trying in the community. Some things being said here don't match up in my little brain.

-Grounding to solve for electrical noise/static is typically an action taken for radio broadcast systems and that solution usually involves inserting copper into the earth. If I was trying to solve for this in an automotive solution, I'd probably use a capacitor too. Correct me if I'm wrong, Radio systems (and noise) are AC in nature, so trying to make it easier on the return to the closed loop DC battery won't exactly fix the condition of static buildup. Electrical blood-letting (I feel like if I used the word bleeding someone would pick up on that and snipe me for using a common resistor term with a capacitor) and shielding is a much better solution.

-Can you create a ground loop on a single source DC system? Once again, I know ground loops as the condition created when you cross connect two dissimilar AC neutrals and grounds together and learn about your mistake at the first convenient electrical storm (in the IT world, the old Rocketport system used in between buildings, or Coax thinnet as someone said previous). On the DeLorean, I'd think that as long as all ground wires go back to the battery via the frame, engine, or direct cable it wouldn't matter how many bus bars you would have cross connected (providing your connections at the bars were clean). 

-Hey guys, this is America (and UK, Poland, Australia, etc)- If anyone wants to take out their capacitors just because, it's a free country. Personally, I'd recommend to those who try  that they get a large ipod for their music delights afterwards because unless we're wrong, the radio reception is going to suck.

Now, can anyone guess how many talking points I just created for the next 64 DML postings? I bet I'm totally wrong about all of this stuff, and I bet someone here is willing to prove it to me.

One more question- Does anyone know the difference between the DML and a local bar?

Eric Itzel
Vin 4433

Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

-----Original Message-----
From: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: 3 Jul 2012 08:58:05 
To: <dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: "No Reply"<notify-dg-dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 6026

DML - the DeLorean Mailing List 
 
 
    
     <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkOW92a200BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNTQzMjAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTI2MjE1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzQxMzA1ODg1> 
 
       DML - the DeLorean Mailing List Group  
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 25 New Messages 
 Digest #6026 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1a 
  Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)  by "content22207" content22207 
 
 
 
 1b 
  Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)  by "content22207" content22207 
 
 
 
 1c 
  Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)  by "Marc Levy" malevy_nj 
 
 
 
 1d 
  Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)  by "jtrealtywebspannet" jtrealtywebspannet 
 
 
 
 1e 
  Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)  by "content22207" content22207 
 
 
 
 1f 
  Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)  by "Michael Griese" roscsyl 
 
 
 
 1g 
  Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)  by "content22207" content22207 
 
 
 
 1h 
  Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)  by "Martin Gutkowski" heavenrest 
 
 
 
 1i 
  Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)  by "Michael Griese" roscsyl 
 
 
 
 1j 
  Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)  by "Tom Niemczewski" Tomciodmc 
 
 
 
 1k 
  Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)  by "content22207" content22207 
 
 
 
 1l 
  Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)  by "content22207" content22207 
 
 
 
 1m 
  Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)  by "Marc Levy" malevy_nj 
 
 
 
 1n 
  Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)  by "stevedmc@xxxxxxxxx" stevedmc1982 
 
 
 
 1o 
  Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)  by "Martin Gutkowski" heavenrest 
 
 
 
 2a 
  Re: The sky is blue  by "content22207" content22207 
 
 
 
 3.1 
  Re: Capacitors, and &quot;Ground Bus&quot;  by "content22207" content22207 
 
 
 
 3.2 
  Re: Capacitors, and &quot;Ground Bus&quot;  by "Martin Gutkowski" heavenrest 
 
 
 
 3.3 
  Re: Capacitors, and &quot;Ground Bus&quot;  by "Martin Gutkowski" heavenrest 
 
 
 
 3.4 
  Re: Capacitors, and &quot;Ground Bus&quot;  by "Marc Levy" malevy_nj 
 
 
 
 4 
  DeLorean Mid-Atlantic's Summer Fun Run 2012  by "djdanwilson" djdanwilson 
 
 
 
 5a 
  Re: DeLoreans Sold on Ebay: 2012 Q2 Update (68 months of data)  by "PAUL LEGUTKI" chicagopaul7418 
 
 
 
 6 
  1981 AMC Wiring Diagrams (With *ONE* Capacitor Circled in Red)  by "content22207" content22207 
 
 
 
 7a 
  Grounding.  by "Cars" twodelos2 
 
 
 
 7b 
  Re: Grounding.  by "content22207" content22207 
  
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1a 
  
        
        Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)        
         <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/85599;_ylc=X3oDMTJyZnFhdDFnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNTQzMjAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTI2MjE1BG1zZ0lkAzg1NTk5BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEzNDEzMDU4ODU-> 
  
 Mon Jul 2, 2012 9:54 am (PDT) . Posted by: 
        
        "content22207"         content22207         
         <mailto:brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject= Re%3A%20Inadequate%20DeLorean%20Grounding%20Identified%20%28Big%20Red%20Circle%29> 
 
 Single point isn't the problem. Most cars only have one point to the battery itself. The problem is only seven ground wires leading back to the rear bulkhead bolt -- there simply isn't enough wire on the negative side. There is a terrible disparity between electrical cross section on the positive side and on the negative side. That is why the DeLorean electrical system is so ridiculously noisy (which is giving the EFI boys fits BTW: the only way they can get their Megasquirt modules to work right is by regrounding their cars too).
 
 The nice people at Lotus/DMC stuck capacitors all over the car trying to quiet things down. They would have had better results with the 1981 equivalent of $50 of battery cable and copper connectors.
 
 What cracks me up is the DeLorean mantra of "cleaning your grounds." You can't clean the junctions -- they are soldered together. The problem that they are dirty -- the problem is that there are too few wires joining them together. 
 
 Marc, David, Martin, Harold, et al have managed to tie themselves in knots over this issue. I choose to stand with Rob Grady, Dave McKeen, and the owners I have assisted, who not only clearly recognize the problem for what it is (it takes a brave man -- or a naive one -- to claim that the DeLorean electrical system is not problematic on its best day), but who also are just plain more mellow about the problem, and about its remedy.
 
 Do you like turtles?
 
 Bill Robertson
 #5939
 
 --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> , Stephen Rice <stevedmc@...> wrote:
 >
 > This reminds me of old BNC computer networks. Back then the whole
 > network was dependent on one wire. If a break in the wire occured it
 > could render the entire network useless. Then Cat5 ethernet
 > connections came along. You could cut the wire to any single
 > workstation and the rest of the computers could still connect to the
 > computer.
 > 
 > I have no idea if single point grounding is still in use but it would
 > make sense to abandon it for a better technology just as they did with
 > BNC networks when everyone switched to ethernet.
 > 
 > -Steve Rice
 > #16510
 > 
 > 
 
  
 
 
 
             
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            <mailto:brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject=Re%3A%20Inadequate%20DeLorean%20Grounding%20Identified%20%28Big%20Red%20Circle%29>   
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 1b 
  
        
        Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)        
         <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/85602;_ylc=X3oDMTJyaHNqM21nBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNTQzMjAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTI2MjE1BG1zZ0lkAzg1NjAyBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEzNDEzMDU4ODU-> 
  
 Mon Jul 2, 2012 10:15 am (PDT) . Posted by: 
        
        "content22207"         content22207         
         <mailto:brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject= Re%3A%20Inadequate%20DeLorean%20Grounding%20Identified%20%28Big%20Red%20Circle%29> 
 
 Correction: Harold's Message #85598 is actually rather mellow -- he's not part of the current running around with your hands in the air crowd (we'll let Tom take his place).
 
 Harold does have a loose DeLorean wiring harness he can use to verify that the inertia switch is grounded via the ground junction behind the central HVAC duct.... (I've already unwrapped #2508's wiring harness to discover the same thing, but Harold could ring it out with a meter to prove it to anyone who doubts my research).
 
 Bill Robertson
 #5939
 
 --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> , "content22207" <brobertson@...> wrote:
 >
 > Single point isn't the problem. Most cars only have one point to the battery itself. The problem is only seven ground wires leading back to the rear bulkhead bolt -- there simply isn't enough wire on the negative side. There is a terrible disparity between electrical cross section on the positive side and on the negative side. That is why the DeLorean electrical system is so ridiculously noisy (which is giving the EFI boys fits BTW: the only way they can get their Megasquirt modules to work right is by regrounding their cars too).
 > 
 > The nice people at Lotus/DMC stuck capacitors all over the car trying to quiet things down. They would have had better results with the 1981 equivalent of $50 of battery cable and copper connectors.
 > 
 > What cracks me up is the DeLorean mantra of "cleaning your grounds." You can't clean the junctions -- they are soldered together. The problem that they are dirty -- the problem is that there are too few wires joining them together. 
 > 
 > Marc, David, Martin, Harold, et al have managed to tie themselves in knots over this issue. I choose to stand with Rob Grady, Dave McKeen, and the owners I have assisted, who not only clearly recognize the problem for what it is (it takes a brave man -- or a naive one -- to claim that the DeLorean electrical system is not problematic on its best day), but who also are just plain more mellow about the problem, and about its remedy.
 > 
 > Do you like turtles?
 > 
 > Bill Robertson
 > #5939
 > 
 
  
 
 
 
             
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            <mailto:brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject=Re%3A%20Inadequate%20DeLorean%20Grounding%20Identified%20%28Big%20Red%20Circle%29>   
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 1c 
  
        
        Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)        
         <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/85603;_ylc=X3oDMTJycnM3bDFwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNTQzMjAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTI2MjE1BG1zZ0lkAzg1NjAzBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEzNDEzMDU4ODU-> 
  
 Mon Jul 2, 2012 10:19 am (PDT) . Posted by: 
        
        "Marc Levy"         malevy_nj         
         <mailto:malevy_nj@xxxxxxxxx?Subject= Re%3A%20Inadequate%20DeLorean%20Grounding%20Identified%20%28Big%20Red%20Circle%29> 
 
 You have provided nothing to back up this statement (below).
 
 We do not know WHY the capacitors were added, but anyone that understands how a capacitor works would also understand how a bigger ground wire would never replace a the need/function of a capacitor. 
 
 "noise" problems and "ground" problems are commonly confused, but are not cured in the same way.  The discussion (for me) was never about what advantages/disadvantages/need there is for bigger (or additional) grounds, but your connecting these 2 unrelated subjects and again blaming the engineers for it.
 
 Considering I have an EFI DeLorean, with LOTS of extra electrical demand over a stock DMC (because of the 1000W Stereo), this is a subject I have spent a lot of time working on, with the specific application of a DeLorean. 
 
 --- On Mon, 7/2/12, content22207 <brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:brobertson%40carolina.net> > wrote:
 
 The nice people at Lotus/DMC stuck capacitors all over the car trying to quiet things down. They would have had better results with the 1981 equivalent of $50 of battery cable and copper connectors.
 
 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
  
 
 
 
             
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            <mailto:malevy_nj@xxxxxxxxx?Subject=Re%3A%20Inadequate%20DeLorean%20Grounding%20Identified%20%28Big%20Red%20Circle%29>   
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 1d 
  
        
        Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)        
         <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/85607;_ylc=X3oDMTJydnBzNWZyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNTQzMjAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTI2MjE1BG1zZ0lkAzg1NjA3BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEzNDEzMDU4ODU-> 
  
 Mon Jul 2, 2012 10:40 am (PDT) . Posted by: 
        
        "jtrealtywebspannet"         jtrealtywebspannet         
         <mailto:jtrealty@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject= Re%3A%20Inadequate%20DeLorean%20Grounding%20Identified%20%28Big%20Red%20Circle%29> 
 
 Again you get it wrong. The capacitors are NOT there to make up for any inadequacy of the grounding system of the car. They are there to remove any noise on the electrical system that can interfere with the radio's reception. There is PLENTY of capacity on the ground side PROVIDED the connections are clean. When the cars were much younger there were no issues with the electrical system that pertained to the ground side. What changed? The cars got older and connections corroded, especially on the cars that were subjected to weather. Older computer systems were VERY sensitive to grounding. You had to be careful not to create what was called "Ground Looping" so they all used what was called single point grounding and even that had to be handled very carefully. Most of that was overcome by software that did error checking and correction and sending packets (bunches) of information. Different circumstances than an automobile's wiring system which uses the wiring mainly for power.
 David Teitelbaum
 
 --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> , "content22207" <brobertson@...> wrote:
 >
 > Single point isn't the problem. Most cars only have one point to the battery itself. The problem is only seven ground wires leading back to the rear bulkhead bolt -- there simply isn't enough wire on the negative side. There is a terrible disparity between electrical cross section on the positive side and on the negative side. That is why the DeLorean electrical system is so ridiculously noisy (which is giving the EFI boys fits BTW: the only way they can get their Megasquirt modules to work right is by regrounding their cars too).
 > 
 > The nice people at Lotus/DMC stuck capacitors all over the car trying to quiet things down. They would have had better results with the 1981 equivalent of $50 of battery cable and copper connectors.
 > 
 > What cracks me up is the DeLorean mantra of "cleaning your grounds." You can't clean the junctions -- they are soldered together. The problem that they are dirty -- the problem is that there are too few wires joining them together. 
 > 
 > Marc, David, Martin, Harold, et al have managed to tie themselves in knots over this issue. I choose to stand with Rob Grady, Dave McKeen, and the owners I have assisted, who not only clearly recognize the problem for what it is (it takes a brave man -- or a naive one -- to claim that the DeLorean electrical system is not problematic on its best day), but who also are just plain more mellow about the problem, and about its remedy.
 > 
 > Do you like turtles?
 > 
 > Bill Robertson
 > #5939
 > 
 > 
 > --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> , Stephen Rice <stevedmc@> wrote:
 > >
 > > This reminds me of old BNC computer networks. Back then the whole
 > > network was dependent on one wire. If a break in the wire occured it
 > > could render the entire network useless. Then Cat5 ethernet
 > > connections came along. You could cut the wire to any single
 > > workstation and the rest of the computers could still connect to the
 > > computer.
 > > 
 > > I have no idea if single point grounding is still in use but it would
 > > make sense to abandon it for a better technology just as they did with
 > > BNC networks when everyone switched to ethernet.
 > > 
 > > -Steve Rice
 > > #16510
 > > 
 > >
 >
 
  
 
 
 
             
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 1e 
  
        
        Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)        
         <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/85608;_ylc=X3oDMTJyaWppYWFhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNTQzMjAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTI2MjE1BG1zZ0lkAzg1NjA4BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEzNDEzMDU4ODU-> 
  
 Mon Jul 2, 2012 10:55 am (PDT) . Posted by: 
        
        "content22207"         content22207         
         <mailto:brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject= Re%3A%20Inadequate%20DeLorean%20Grounding%20Identified%20%28Big%20Red%20Circle%29> 
 
 I've spent a lot of time working on my DeLorean too (is it possible I know as much about these stupid little cars as the self proclaimed "gurus"...).
 
 Since we're comparing DeLorean sizes in the schoolyard: my car draws about 62 amps maximum (2,000 RPM, everything on except the window motors):
 http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/374927_303124723066118_184072810_n.jpg
 I may have the only DeLorean in the world that could reliably use a stock ground system, which makes its added super efficient ground bus very ironic indeed.
 
 Bill Robertson
 #5939
 
 --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> , Marc Levy <malevy_nj@...> wrote:
 >
 > You have provided nothing to back up this statement (below).
 > 
 > We do not know WHY the capacitors were added, but anyone that understands how a capacitor works would also understand how a bigger ground wire would never replace a the need/function of a capacitor. 
 > 
 > "noise" problems and "ground" problems are commonly confused, but are not cured in the same way.  The discussion (for me) was never about what advantages/disadvantages/need there is for bigger (or additional) grounds, but your connecting these 2 unrelated subjects and again blaming the engineers for it.
 > 
 > Considering I have an EFI DeLorean, with LOTS of extra electrical demand over a stock DMC (because of the 1000W Stereo), this is a subject I have spent a lot of time working on, with the specific application of a DeLorean. 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 
  
 
 
 
             
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 1f 
  
        
        Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)        
         <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/85609;_ylc=X3oDMTJycjI0dGdpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNTQzMjAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTI2MjE1BG1zZ0lkAzg1NjA5BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEzNDEzMDU4ODU-> 
  
 Mon Jul 2, 2012 12:02 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 
        
        "Michael Griese"         roscsyl         
         <mailto:mike.griese@xxxxxxx?Subject= Re%3A%20Inadequate%20DeLorean%20Grounding%20Identified%20%28Big%20Red%20Circle%29> 
 
 Bill - That will work fine until all of the connections to your ground bus start 
 to corrode. Still won't remove the need for capacitors though.
 
 If you don't believe me - remove them all. 
 
 --
 Mike
 
 ________________________________
 From: content22207 <brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:brobertson%40carolina.net> >
 To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> 
 Sent: Mon, July 2, 2012 7:58:13 AM
 Subject: [DML] Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)
 
 For anyone who can not -- or will not -- read a schematic, I have drawn a big 
 red circle around the root cause of inadequate DeLorean grounding:
 http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/600218_424190510959538_985636846_n.jpg
 
 This is what distinguishes DeLoreans from traditional metal bodied cars, which 
 present a *MUCH* bigger ground path. Simply augmenting these seven wires to 
 present a ground path of similar electrical profile to a metal bodied car 
 revolutionizes the DeLorean electrical system. 
 
 IMHO.
 
 Bill Robertson
 #5939
 
 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
  
 
 
 
             
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            <mailto:mike.griese@xxxxxxx?Subject=Re%3A%20Inadequate%20DeLorean%20Grounding%20Identified%20%28Big%20Red%20Circle%29>   
 . 
 
             
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 . 
 
             
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 1g 
  
        
        Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)        
         <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/85610;_ylc=X3oDMTJyNWs3ZGdkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNTQzMjAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTI2MjE1BG1zZ0lkAzg1NjEwBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEzNDEzMDU4ODU-> 
  
 Mon Jul 2, 2012 12:32 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 
        
        "content22207"         content22207         
         <mailto:brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject= Re%3A%20Inadequate%20DeLorean%20Grounding%20Identified%20%28Big%20Red%20Circle%29> 
 
 Won't happen -- my bus is weather protected inside the passenger compartment. Even the bus to battery connection is inside. There are only two external connections to the bus:
 Front radiator bracket: http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/383933_294239117288012_384394085_n.jpg
 Engine block (at the top, thank you very much, not right next to the pavement): http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/387305_294242413954349_1594776592_n.jpg
 Everything else is just as weather protected as my upholstery, carpet, and headliner.
 
 Note also that bus connections are not left bare as pictured in Message #85588 (that picture just illustrated how soldered factory junctions are attached to the bus). The saddle clamp is then wrapped in heat shrunk tape: http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/532723_357245094320747_1768539170_n.jpg
 Bus connections aren't even exposed to the climate controlled atmosphere inside the car! 
 
 Metal bodied cars contemporary to the DeLorean typically had capacitors on ignition only. They didn't need capacitors anywhere else because something as simple as turn signals didn't create a bunch of electrical noise. My ground bus emulates the electrical efficiency of a metal bodied car. 
 
 IMHO.
 
 Bill Robertson
 #5939
 
 --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> , Michael Griese <mike.griese@...> wrote:
 >
 > Bill - That will work fine until all of the connections to your ground bus start 
 > to corrode. Still won't remove the need for capacitors though.
 > 
 > If you don't believe me - remove them all. 
 > 
 > --
 > Mike
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > ________________________________
 > From: content22207 <brobertson@...>
 > To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> 
 > Sent: Mon, July 2, 2012 7:58:13 AM
 > Subject: [DML] Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)
 > 
 
  
 
 
 
             
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            <mailto:brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject=Re%3A%20Inadequate%20DeLorean%20Grounding%20Identified%20%28Big%20Red%20Circle%29>   
 . 
 
             
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            <mailto:dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject= Re%3A%20Inadequate%20DeLorean%20Grounding%20Identified%20%28Big%20Red%20Circle%29>  
 . 
 
             
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 1h 
  
        
        Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)        
         <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/85611;_ylc=X3oDMTJyOXBhMDM0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNTQzMjAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTI2MjE1BG1zZ0lkAzg1NjExBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEzNDEzMDU4ODU-> 
  
 Mon Jul 2, 2012 12:38 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 
        
        "Martin Gutkowski"         heavenrest         
         <mailto:martin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject= Re%3A%20Inadequate%20DeLorean%20Grounding%20Identified%20%28Big%20Red%20Circle%29> 
 
 With a modern stereo, he probably doesn't need them anyway. 
 
 Martin 
 
 Sent from my BlackBerry® 
 
 -----Original Message----- 
 From: Michael Griese <mike.griese@xxxxxxx <mailto:mike.griese%40att.net> > 
 Sender: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> 
 Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 12:02:34 
 To: <dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> > 
 Reply-To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> 
 Subject: Re: [DML] Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle) 
 
 Bill - That will work fine until all of the connections to your ground bus start 
 to corrode. Still won't remove the need for capacitors though. 
 
 If you don't believe me - remove them all. 
 
 -- 
 Mike 
 
 
 
 
 ________________________________ 
 From: content22207 <brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:brobertson%40carolina.net> > 
 To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> 
 Sent: Mon, July 2, 2012 7:58:13 AM 
 Subject: [DML] Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle) 
 
 
 For anyone who can not -- or will not -- read a schematic, I have drawn a big 
 red circle around the root cause of inadequate DeLorean grounding: 
 http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/600218_424190510959538_985636846_n.jpg 
 
 This is what distinguishes DeLoreans from traditional metal bodied cars, which 
 present a *MUCH* bigger ground path. Simply augmenting these seven wires to 
 present a ground path of similar electrical profile to a metal bodied car 
 revolutionizes the DeLorean electrical system. 
 
 
 IMHO. 
 
 Bill Robertson 
 #5939 
 
 
 
 
 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 
 
 
 
 ------------------------------------ 
 
 To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address: 
 moderators@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:moderators%40dmcnews.com> 
 
 For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com 
 
 To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnewsYahoo! Groups Links 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
             
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            <mailto:martin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject=Re%3A%20Inadequate%20DeLorean%20Grounding%20Identified%20%28Big%20Red%20Circle%29>   
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 1i 
  
        
        Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)        
         <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/85612;_ylc=X3oDMTJydXU3cTFzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNTQzMjAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTI2MjE1BG1zZ0lkAzg1NjEyBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEzNDEzMDU4ODU-> 
  
 Mon Jul 2, 2012 12:41 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 
        
        "Michael Griese"         roscsyl         
         <mailto:mike.griese@xxxxxxx?Subject= Re%3A%20Inadequate%20DeLorean%20Grounding%20Identified%20%28Big%20Red%20Circle%29> 
 
 Whatever you say Bill.
 
 --
 Mike
 
 ________________________________
 From: content22207 <brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:brobertson%40carolina.net> >
 To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> 
 Sent: Mon, July 2, 2012 2:32:28 PM
 Subject: Re: [DML] Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)
 
 Won't happen -- my bus is weather protected inside the passenger compartment. 
 Even the bus to battery connection is inside. There are only two external 
 connections to the bus:
 Front radiator bracket: 
 http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/383933_294239117288012_384394085_n.jpg
 Engine block (at the top, thank you very much, not right next to the pavement): 
 http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/387305_294242413954349_1594776592_n.jpg
 Everything else is just as weather protected as my upholstery, carpet, and 
 headliner.
 
 Note also that bus connections are not left bare as pictured in Message #85588 
 (that picture just illustrated how soldered factory junctions are attached to 
 the bus). The saddle clamp is then wrapped in heat shrunk tape: 
 http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/532723_357245094320747_1768539170_n.jpg
 Bus connections aren't even exposed to the climate controlled atmosphere inside 
 the car! 
 
 Metal bodied cars contemporary to the DeLorean typically had capacitors on 
 ignition only. They didn't need capacitors anywhere else because something as 
 simple as turn signals didn't create a bunch of electrical noise. My ground bus 
 emulates the electrical efficiency of a metal bodied car. 
 
 IMHO.
 
 Bill Robertson
 #5939
 
 --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> , Michael Griese <mike.griese@...> wrote:
 >
 > Bill - That will work fine until all of the connections to your ground bus 
 >start 
 >
 > to corrode. Still won't remove the need for capacitors though.
 > 
 > If you don't believe me - remove them all. 
 > 
 > --
 > Mike
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > ________________________________
 > From: content22207 <brobertson@...>
 > To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> 
 > Sent: Mon, July 2, 2012 7:58:13 AM
 > Subject: [DML] Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)
 > 
 
 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
  
 
 
 
             
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            <mailto:mike.griese@xxxxxxx?Subject=Re%3A%20Inadequate%20DeLorean%20Grounding%20Identified%20%28Big%20Red%20Circle%29>   
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 1j 
  
        
        Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)        
         <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/85613;_ylc=X3oDMTJyb2lrZHFzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNTQzMjAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTI2MjE1BG1zZ0lkAzg1NjEzBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEzNDEzMDU4ODU-> 
  
 Mon Jul 2, 2012 2:29 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 
        
        "Tom Niemczewski"         Tomciodmc         
         <mailto:dmctom@xxxxxxxxx?Subject= Re%3A%20Inadequate%20DeLorean%20Grounding%20Identified%20%28Big%20Red%20Circle%29> 
 
 Again, this is a proof that you only read what you want to and not what was 
 actually said.
 
 > Metal bodied cars contemporary to the DeLorean typically had capacitors on 
 > ignition only. They didn't need capacitors anywhere else because something 
 > as simple as turn signals didn't create a bunch of electrical noise. My 
 > ground bus emulates the electrical efficiency of a metal bodied car.
 
 As I have said before. New cars have capacitors mounted inside parts of the 
 cars and you just don't see them. Just because you don't see them doesn't 
 mean they are not there. Wiper motors, blower motors, even electric window 
 motors have capacitors installed inside the motor housing. This is for two 
 reasons:
 1. A capacitor works best when installed as close to the source of noise as 
 possible
 2. It lower the assembly cost - they just ask the manufacturer to supply a 
 part that doesn't create electrical noise.
 
 Can I make it any clearer for you to understand it? If you don't believe me, 
 go to an auto parts store and buy a wiper motor. Take it apart and you find 
 this little black box inside attached to the wires. This is your 
 non-existent capacitor. They are there.
 
 Bill, the earth must be flat right? You don't see the curvature so it must 
 be flat!
 Give it a rest already!
 
 Greetings from Poland!
 Tom Niemczewski
 Vin 6149 plus 2418, 3633, 5030, 16473, 17086
 Google earth: 52°25'17.66"N, 21° 1'58.40"E 
 
  
 
 
 
             
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            <mailto:dmctom@xxxxxxxxx?Subject=Re%3A%20Inadequate%20DeLorean%20Grounding%20Identified%20%28Big%20Red%20Circle%29>   
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 1k 
  
        
        Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)        
         <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/85616;_ylc=X3oDMTJyNnBiOXA3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNTQzMjAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTI2MjE1BG1zZ0lkAzg1NjE2BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEzNDEzMDU4ODU-> 
  
 Mon Jul 2, 2012 7:00 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 
        
        "content22207"         content22207         
         <mailto:brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject= Re%3A%20Inadequate%20DeLorean%20Grounding%20Identified%20%28Big%20Red%20Circle%29> 
 
 With all due respect, you are guilty of the very thing of which you accuse me:
 
 I clearly wrote "cars contemporary to the DeLorean." You even quoted my words in your reply. I guess you quoted them without reading them. "Contemporary to the DeLorean" means 1981 model year, not any 21st century model year.
 
 As soon as I get back from some errands I will scan and post the wiring diagrams for my 1981 AMC. It has exactly *ONE* capacitor in the entire car, on ignition.
 
 And yet, for some reason, all of the other electrical devices on the car do not send its electrical system into a tailspin....
 
 My 1981 AMC does not have a capacitor on its windshield wipers.
 My 1981 AMC does not have a capacitor on its turn signals.
 My 1981 AMC does not have a capacitor on its blower motor.
 My 1981 AMC does not have a capacitor on its headlight switch.
 Etc.
 
 By virtue of increasing the wire size between all of my 1981 DeLorean's ground junctions, I have effectively given my 1981 DeLorean an electrical cross section comparable to my 1981 AMC.
 
 If the 1981 AMC wiring diagrams aren't enough to convince you, I have 1979 Lincoln wiring diagrams I can scan and post (I'll give you a sneak preview -- they only have one capacitor as well, on ignition).
 
 Bill Robertson
 #5939
 
 --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> , "Tom Niemczewski" <dmctom@...> wrote:
 >
 > Again, this is a proof that you only read what you want to and not what was 
 > actually said.
 > 
 > > Metal bodied cars contemporary to the DeLorean typically had capacitors on 
 > > ignition only. They didn't need capacitors anywhere else because something 
 > > as simple as turn signals didn't create a bunch of electrical noise. My 
 > > ground bus emulates the electrical efficiency of a metal bodied car.
 > 
 > As I have said before. New cars have capacitors mounted inside parts of the 
 > cars and you just don't see them. Just because you don't see them doesn't 
 > mean they are not there. Wiper motors, blower motors, even electric window 
 > motors have capacitors installed inside the motor housing. This is for two 
 > reasons:
 > 1. A capacitor works best when installed as close to the source of noise as 
 > possible
 > 2. It lower the assembly cost - they just ask the manufacturer to supply a 
 > part that doesn't create electrical noise.
 > 
 > Can I make it any clearer for you to understand it? If you don't believe me, 
 > go to an auto parts store and buy a wiper motor. Take it apart and you find 
 > this little black box inside attached to the wires. This is your 
 > non-existent capacitor. They are there.
 > 
 > Bill, the earth must be flat right? You don't see the curvature so it must 
 > be flat!
 > Give it a rest already!
 > 
 > Greetings from Poland!
 > Tom Niemczewski
 > Vin 6149 plus 2418, 3633, 5030, 16473, 17086
 > Google earth: 52°25'17.66"N, 21° 1'58.40"E
 >
 
  
 
 
 
             
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            <mailto:brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject=Re%3A%20Inadequate%20DeLorean%20Grounding%20Identified%20%28Big%20Red%20Circle%29>   
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 1l 
  
        
        Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)        
         <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/85617;_ylc=X3oDMTJyMmVnaDAwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNTQzMjAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTI2MjE1BG1zZ0lkAzg1NjE3BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEzNDEzMDU4ODU-> 
  
 Mon Jul 2, 2012 7:16 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 
        
        "content22207"         content22207         
         <mailto:brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject= Re%3A%20Inadequate%20DeLorean%20Grounding%20Identified%20%28Big%20Red%20Circle%29> 
 
 With all due respect, you are guilty of the very thing of which you accuse me:
 
 I clearly wrote "cars contemporary to the DeLorean." You even quoted my words in your reply. I guess you quoted them without reading them. "Contemporary to the DeLorean" means 1981 model year, not any 21st century model year.
 
 As soon as I get back from some errands I will scan and post the wiring diagrams for my 1981 AMC. It has exactly *ONE* capacitor in the entire car, on ignition.
 
 And yet, for some reason, all of the other electrical devices on the car do not send its electrical system into a tailspin....
 
 My 1981 AMC does not have a capacitor on its windshield wipers.
 My 1981 AMC does not have a capacitor on its turn signals.
 My 1981 AMC does not have a capacitor on its blower motor.
 My 1981 AMC does not have a capacitor on its headlight switch.
 Etc.
 
 By virtue of increasing the wire size between all of my 1981 DeLorean's ground junctions, I have effectively given my 1981 DeLorean an electrical cross section comparable to my 1981 AMC.
 
 If the 1981 AMC wiring diagrams aren't enough to convince you, I have 1979 Lincoln wiring diagrams I can scan and post (I'll give you a sneak preview -- they only have one capacitor as well, on ignition).
 
 Bill Robertson
 #5939
 
 --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> , "Tom Niemczewski" <dmctom@...> wrote:
 >
 > Again, this is a proof that you only read what you want to and not what was 
 > actually said.
 > 
 > > Metal bodied cars contemporary to the DeLorean typically had capacitors on 
 > > ignition only. They didn't need capacitors anywhere else because something 
 > > as simple as turn signals didn't create a bunch of electrical noise. My 
 > > ground bus emulates the electrical efficiency of a metal bodied car.
 > 
 > As I have said before. New cars have capacitors mounted inside parts of the 
 > cars and you just don't see them. Just because you don't see them doesn't 
 > mean they are not there. Wiper motors, blower motors, even electric window 
 > motors have capacitors installed inside the motor housing. This is for two 
 > reasons:
 > 1. A capacitor works best when installed as close to the source of noise as 
 > possible
 > 2. It lower the assembly cost - they just ask the manufacturer to supply a 
 > part that doesn't create electrical noise.
 > 
 > Can I make it any clearer for you to understand it? If you don't believe me, 
 > go to an auto parts store and buy a wiper motor. Take it apart and you find 
 > this little black box inside attached to the wires. This is your 
 > non-existent capacitor. They are there.
 > 
 > Bill, the earth must be flat right? You don't see the curvature so it must 
 > be flat!
 > Give it a rest already!
 > 
 > Greetings from Poland!
 > Tom Niemczewski
 > Vin 6149 plus 2418, 3633, 5030, 16473, 17086
 > Google earth: 52°25'17.66"N, 21° 1'58.40"E
 >
 
  
 
 
 
             
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 1m 
  
        
        Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)        
         <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/85618;_ylc=X3oDMTJyb2g4NTAwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNTQzMjAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTI2MjE1BG1zZ0lkAzg1NjE4BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEzNDEzMDU4ODU-> 
  
 Mon Jul 2, 2012 7:27 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 
        
        "Marc Levy"         malevy_nj         
         <mailto:malevy_nj@xxxxxxxxx?Subject= Re%3A%20Inadequate%20DeLorean%20Grounding%20Identified%20%28Big%20Red%20Circle%29> 
 
 
 By your own admission, the DMC is far more technically advanced than your beloved AMC.
 
 Do those cars have electronic AFR control (lambda)? 
 
 Do those cars have electronic idle control?
 
 Do those cars have electronic ignition?
 
 Did your AMC Sell for $25K in 1981?  the customer paying $25K for a car in 1981 had higher expectations than the average AMC customer..  For one thing, I doubt they would tolerate any noises through the radio (again, assuming that is the function of these capacitors-  Still, no one has confirmed this!)..
 
 Remember, the DMC was meant to complete with Cadillac, and Mercedes..  Not AMC.  So, I ask this (honest question, I don't know the answer);  How does this "capacitor study" compare to a comparable vehicle?  That is, one with similar technology features. 
 
 Have you considered the possibility that the capacitors were engineered in to the design by someone who was "just being safe" with such an expensive car?  In reality, they may not be needed at all..  either way, you can come up with all of the observations you want but a "ground bus" will never replace the function of a capacitor. 
 
 --- On Mon, 7/2/12, content22207 <brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:brobertson%40carolina.net> > wrote::
 
 I clearly wrote "cars contemporary to the DeLorean." You even quoted my words in your reply. I guess you quoted them without reading them. "Contemporary to the DeLorean" means 1981 model year, not any 21st century model year.
 
 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
  
 
 
 
             
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 1n 
  
        
        Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)        
         <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/85619;_ylc=X3oDMTJyY2E0b3ExBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNTQzMjAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTI2MjE1BG1zZ0lkAzg1NjE5BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEzNDEzMDU4ODU-> 
  
 Mon Jul 2, 2012 7:34 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 
        
        "stevedmc@xxxxxxxxx"         stevedmc1982         
         <mailto:stevedmc@xxxxxxxxx?Subject= Re%3A%20Inadequate%20DeLorean%20Grounding%20Identified%20%28Big%20Red%20Circle%29> 
 
 Doc Brown probably wouldn't have needed a flux capacitor had he installed a ground bus. 
 
 --
 Steve Rice
 #16510
 
 On Jul 2, 2012, at 9:27 PM, Marc Levy <malevy_nj@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:malevy_nj%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
 
 > 
 > By your own admission, the DMC is far more technically advanced than your beloved AMC.
 > 
 > Do those cars have electronic AFR control (lambda)? 
 > 
 > Do those cars have electronic idle control?
 > 
 > Do those cars have electronic ignition?
 > 
 > Did your AMC Sell for $25K in 1981? the customer paying $25K for a car in 1981 had higher expectations than the average AMC customer.. For one thing, I doubt they would tolerate any noises through the radio (again, assuming that is the function of these capacitors- Still, no one has confirmed this!)..
 > 
 > Remember, the DMC was meant to complete with Cadillac, and Mercedes.. Not AMC. So, I ask this (honest question, I don't know the answer); How does this "capacitor study" compare to a comparable vehicle? That is, one with similar technology features. 
 > 
 > Have you considered the possibility that the capacitors were engineered in to the design by someone who was "just being safe" with such an expensive car? In reality, they may not be needed at all.. either way, you can come up with all of the observations you want but a "ground bus" will never replace the function of a capacitor. 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > --- On Mon, 7/2/12, content22207 <brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:brobertson%40carolina.net> > wrote::
 > 
 > I clearly wrote "cars contemporary to the DeLorean." You even quoted my words in your reply. I guess you quoted them without reading them. "Contemporary to the DeLorean" means 1981 model year, not any 21st century model year.
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > ------------------------------------
 > 
 > To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
 > moderators@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:moderators%40dmcnews.com> 
 > 
 > For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
 > 
 > To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnewsYahoo! Groups Links
 > 
 > 
 > 
 
  
 
 
 
             
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 1o 
  
        
        Re: Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle)        
         <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/85623;_ylc=X3oDMTJyZ2tjNmgwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNTQzMjAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTI2MjE1BG1zZ0lkAzg1NjIzBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEzNDEzMDU4ODU-> 
  
 Tue Jul 3, 2012 1:58 am (PDT) . Posted by: 
        
        "Martin Gutkowski"         heavenrest         
         <mailto:martin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject= Re%3A%20Inadequate%20DeLorean%20Grounding%20Identified%20%28Big%20Red%20Circle%29> 
 
 I think the problem here is nobody can argue with Bill's assertion that "other cars don't have caps as part of the loom" because we don't have much collective experience with contemporary cars. But given his assertion on the far more obvious "all cars since the model T have had spare wheels", or "more 2100 carburetors were built than K-jet systems" I think we're on pretty solid ground that he's wrong. 
 
 Either way however, those of us who understand what a cap does and what it's for know the number present as part of the loom can't be considered a measure of the quality of "these stupid little cars" - that'd be "laughably preposterous". 
 
 
 Sent from my BlackBerry® 
 
 -----Original Message----- 
 From: Marc Levy <malevy_nj@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:malevy_nj%40yahoo.com> > 
 Sender: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> 
 Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 19:27:30 
 To: <dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> > 
 Reply-To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> 
 Subject: Re: [DML] Inadequate DeLorean Grounding Identified (Big Red Circle) 
 
 
 By your own admission, the DMC is far more technically advanced than your beloved AMC. 
 
 Do those cars have electronic AFR control (lambda)? 
 
 Do those cars have electronic idle control? 
 
 Do those cars have electronic ignition? 
 
 Did your AMC Sell for $25K in 1981?  the customer paying $25K for a car in 1981 had higher expectations than the average AMC customer..  For one thing, I doubt they would tolerate any noises through the radio (again, assuming that is the function of these capacitors-  Still, no one has confirmed this!).. 
 
 Remember, the DMC was meant to complete with Cadillac, and Mercedes..  Not AMC.  So, I ask this (honest question, I don't know the answer);  How does this "capacitor study" compare to a comparable vehicle?  That is, one with similar technology features. 
 
 Have you considered the possibility that the capacitors were engineered in to the design by someone who was "just being safe" with such an expensive car?  In reality, they may not be needed at all..  either way, you can come up with all of the observations you want but a "ground bus" will never replace the function of a capacitor. 
 
 
 
 
 --- On Mon, 7/2/12, content22207 <brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:brobertson%40carolina.net> > wrote:: 
 
 I clearly wrote "cars contemporary to the DeLorean." You even quoted my words in your reply. I guess you quoted them without reading them. "Contemporary to the DeLorean" means 1981 model year, not any 21st century model year. 
 
 
 
 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 
 
 
 
 ------------------------------------ 
 
 To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address: 
 moderators@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:moderators%40dmcnews.com> 
 
 For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com 
 
 To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnewsYahoo! Groups Links 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
             
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 2a 
  
        
        Re: The sky is blue        
         <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/85600;_ylc=X3oDMTJycDFrZjRlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNTQzMjAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTI2MjE1BG1zZ0lkAzg1NjAwBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEzNDEzMDU4ODU-> 
  
 Mon Jul 2, 2012 10:15 am (PDT) . Posted by: 
        
        "content22207"         content22207         
         <mailto:brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject= Re%3A%20The%20sky%20is%20blue> 
 
 Bob obviously celebrated the 4th by buying himself a new thesaurus.
 
 Bill Robertson
 #5939
 
 --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> , boB <Delorean3@...> wrote:
 >
 > The cacophony of capacitor info has made me incapacitated. 
 > Now carbureted windshields that see more blue sky's can only 
 > lead to a plethora of posts about faulty windshields. I'm eating 
 > captain crunch, adding capsaicin, wearing polarized sunglasses 
 > and hoping my over capacity of capacitors will not capture the 
 > ire of Bill and Marc.
 > 
 > Happy 4th everyone.
 > boB
 > 16909
 > (pulled by horse and wagon)
 > 
 
  
 
 
 
             
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 3.1 
  
        
        Re: Capacitors, and &quot;Ground Bus&quot;        
         <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/85601;_ylc=X3oDMTJyM3ZhZGM3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNTQzMjAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTI2MjE1BG1zZ0lkAzg1NjAxBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEzNDEzMDU4ODU-> 
  
 Mon Jul 2, 2012 10:15 am (PDT) . Posted by: 
        
        "content22207"         content22207         
         <mailto:brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject= Re%3A%20Capacitors%2C%20and%20%22Ground%20Bus%22> 
 
 Capacitors were Lotus/DMC's unsuccessful attempt to quiet the electrical system down. It didn't work -- electrical noise has the EFI boys pulling their hair out. The only way they have managed to get their modules to work right is by regrounding their vehicles.
 
 You too have admitted running new grounds to try to sort this mess out. Not to be the bearer of bad news, but that puts you on our side of the sandbox....
 
 Bill Robertson
 #5939
 
 --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> , Marc Levy <malevy_nj@...> wrote:
 >
 > Sorry, I thought the reason was obvious..  It was less time consuming, and more permanent than cleaning all of the "stock" grounds.   NOT because those stock ground wires are inadequate.  Please remember, I never found fault with your "ground bus", so you don't need to defend it to me. 
 > 
 > However, this discussion is ALL IRRELEVANT, and part of the distraction tactic from your initial claim-  That the ground bus is a "fix" for what the capacitors were used for.  You still have yet to type one word that defends this position.
 > 
 > BTW, I had to install a HUGE "ground bus" on my 66 Mustang. The resistance in the steel body was too high for my 1600W stereo system. 
 > 
 > 
 
  
 
 
 
             
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 3.2 
  
        
        Re: Capacitors, and &quot;Ground Bus&quot;        
         <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/85604;_ylc=X3oDMTJyNWFmY28zBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNTQzMjAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTI2MjE1BG1zZ0lkAzg1NjA0BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEzNDEzMDU4ODU-> 
  
 Mon Jul 2, 2012 10:24 am (PDT) . Posted by: 
        
        "Martin Gutkowski"         heavenrest         
         <mailto:martin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject= Re%3A%20Capacitors%2C%20and%20%22Ground%20Bus%22> 
 
 I am not wrong Bill. You are reading what you want to read and not what is actually written. I'm getting really bored of this now. 
 
 Martin 
 
 Sent from my BlackBerry® 
 
 -----Original Message----- 
 From: "content22207" <brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:brobertson%40carolina.net> > 
 Sender: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> 
 Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 12:24:30 
 To: <dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> > 
 Reply-To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> 
 Subject: Re: [DML] Capacitors, and "Ground Bus" 
 
 And Martin's ongoing wrongness continues.... 
 
 Did you even bother to look at my ground bus schematic? It goes from original soldered junction to original soldered junction. All I've done is pull off the heat shrink and clamp the junction against a 4 gauge battery cable: 
 http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/547536_357252900986633_1055858619_n.jpg 
 
 My ground bus augments the original seven ganged 12 gauge wires with 4 gauge battery cable because *THAT* is where the problem is. The reason it works so well is because the original seven ganged wires back to the bulkhead bolts are what are *SO* inadequate. There is a massive disparity between positive wire cross section and negative wire cross section to the rear bulkhead bolt (and an even bigger disparity in the single 6 gauge wire between the rear bulkhead bolt to the frame). 
 
 Note: In addition to the above, my bus also: 
 - Adds another path to the battery itself 
 - Adds another engine block ground 
 - Supplements the frame as a ground path 
 
 Bill Robertson 
 #5939 
 
 --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> , "Martin Gutkowski" <martin@...> wrote: 
 > 
 > ...And you'll notice I haven't recommended against the addition of extra grounds ;-) I suspect the big improvements have been more to do with bypassing connectors with tarnished crimps than the physicial connection to the chassis. I've replaced many connectors in my time, that's for sure... 
 > 
 > Best Wishes, 
 > 
 > Martin 
 
 
 
 
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 3.3 
  
        
        Re: Capacitors, and &quot;Ground Bus&quot;        
         <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/85605;_ylc=X3oDMTJyczFsNXNjBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNTQzMjAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTI2MjE1BG1zZ0lkAzg1NjA1BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEzNDEzMDU4ODU-> 
  
 Mon Jul 2, 2012 10:28 am (PDT) . Posted by: 
        
        "Martin Gutkowski"         heavenrest         
         <mailto:martin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject= Re%3A%20Capacitors%2C%20and%20%22Ground%20Bus%22> 
 
 I have successfully installed EFI several times simply by using the two points behind the rear board. 
 
 Martin 
 
 Sent from my BlackBerry® 
 
 -----Original Message----- 
 From: "content22207" <brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:brobertson%40carolina.net> > 
 Sender: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> 
 Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 17:08:12 
 To: <dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> > 
 Reply-To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> 
 Subject: [DML] Re: Capacitors, and "Ground Bus" 
 
 Capacitors were Lotus/DMC's unsuccessful attempt to quiet the electrical system down. It didn't work -- electrical noise has the EFI boys pulling their hair out. The only way they have managed to get their modules to work right is by regrounding their vehicles. 
 
 You too have admitted running new grounds to try to sort this mess out. Not to be the bearer of bad news, but that puts you on our side of the sandbox.... 
 
 Bill Robertson 
 #5939 
 
 
 --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> , Marc Levy <malevy_nj@...> wrote: 
 > 
 > Sorry, I thought the reason was obvious..  It was less time consuming, and more permanent than cleaning all of the "stock" grounds.   NOT because those stock ground wires are inadequate.  Please remember, I never found fault with your "ground bus", so you don't need to defend it to me. 
 > 
 > However, this discussion is ALL IRRELEVANT, and part of the distraction tactic from your initial claim-  That the ground bus is a "fix" for what the capacitors were used for.  You still have yet to type one word that defends this position. 
 > 
 > BTW, I had to install a HUGE "ground bus" on my 66 Mustang. The resistance in the steel body was too high for my 1600W stereo system. 
 > 
 > 
 
 
 
 
 ------------------------------------ 
 
 To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address: 
 moderators@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:moderators%40dmcnews.com> 
 
 For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com 
 
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 3.4 
  
        
        Re: Capacitors, and &quot;Ground Bus&quot;        
         <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/85606;_ylc=X3oDMTJyNWI2YjI2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNTQzMjAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTI2MjE1BG1zZ0lkAzg1NjA2BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEzNDEzMDU4ODU-> 
  
 Mon Jul 2, 2012 10:28 am (PDT) . Posted by: 
        
        "Marc Levy"         malevy_nj         
         <mailto:malevy_nj@xxxxxxxxx?Subject= Re%3A%20Capacitors%2C%20and%20%22Ground%20Bus%22> 
 
 I added new grounds from the battery to the alternator, because when my 1000W stereo was at full blast, the engine ECU would run the engine lean.
 
 in *MY* case, the voltage drop across the "stock" electrical path from the alternator to the battery was too high..  as the amperage went up through that path, the voltage drop also increased, causing a LOW VOLTAGE situation at my ECU. 
 
 My problem has NOTHING to do with noise.   The only capacitor I added to my car is connected directly to my sub-woofer amplifier.  This is a "stiffening capacitor" that allows the amplifier to get large amounts of current from the capacitor instead of the battery on demand.  Adding the capacitor had NO IMPACT on my ECU issues. 
 
 Once again, I am not faulting anyone who wants to add a "ground bus".  I admit to adding grounds in my car and many others, so I am not sure what point you are trying to prove by mentioning it yet again.   The fact remains, you can replace all of the fiberglass in the car with copper, and it will not replace the function of a capacitor. 
 
 --- On Mon, 7/2/12, content22207 <brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:brobertson%40carolina.net> > wrote:
 
 From: content22207 <brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:brobertson%40carolina.net> >
 Subject: [DML] Re: Capacitors, and "Ground Bus"
 To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> 
 Date: Monday, July 2, 2012, 1:08 PM
 
 Capacitors were Lotus/DMC's unsuccessful attempt to quiet the electrical system down. It didn't work -- electrical noise has the EFI boys pulling their hair out. The only way they have managed to get their modules to work right is by regrounding their vehicles.
 
 You too have admitted running new grounds to try to sort this mess out. Not to be the bearer of bad news, but that puts you on our side of the sandbox....
 
 Bill Robertson
 #5939
 
 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
  
 
 
 
             
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 4 
  
        
        DeLorean Mid-Atlantic's Summer Fun Run 2012        
         <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/85614;_ylc=X3oDMTJyZjNyMjQ0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNTQzMjAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTI2MjE1BG1zZ0lkAzg1NjE0BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEzNDEzMDU4ODU-> 
  
 Mon Jul 2, 2012 3:53 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 
        
        "djdanwilson"         djdanwilson         
         <mailto:djdanwilson@xxxxxxxxx?Subject= Re%3A%20DeLorean%20Mid-Atlantic%27s%20Summer%20Fun%20Run%202012> 
 
 Signup is now open for the DMA Summer Fun Run, 2012 edition!
 
 This year's event will take place on Saturday July 28th, 2012 and will feature a 100 mile driving tour originating in the Palisades Interstate Park region that will weave a scenic path through Harriman and Bear Mountain State Parks, wind along the Storm King Highway and journey North via the designated Scenic Byways of the picturesque Shawangunk Mountains, ultimately reaching Kingston, NY in the Hudson River Valley. Once in Kingston, we will depart on a relaxing two hour Hudson River sightseeing cruise aboard the "Rip Van Winkle" followed by a delicious family style Italian dinner at the acclaimed Frank Guido's Little Italy Restaurant.
 
 All event details, signup and updates can be found on the DMA Summer Fun Run Webpage: http://www.deloreanmidatlantic.com/events/sfr2012.htm
 
 Deadline for the event signup is July 24th, 2012.
 
 Reminder - You MUST be a 2012 PAID MEMBER to attend this event. To become a DMA member, please visit the Website and click on "Become a Member". If you need to verify membership, please contact justin(at)deloreanmidatlantic.com
 
 DMA Website Homepage: http://www.deloreanmidatlantic.com/
 
 We look forward to seeing you all on July 28th!
 
 Dan Wilson
 Activities Director, DeLorean Mid-Atlantic
 VIN 16192
 
  
 
 
 
             
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 5a 
  
        
        Re: DeLoreans Sold on Ebay: 2012 Q2 Update (68 months of data)        
         <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/85615;_ylc=X3oDMTJyMWMyaG90BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNTQzMjAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTI2MjE1BG1zZ0lkAzg1NjE1BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEzNDEzMDU4ODU-> 
  
 Mon Jul 2, 2012 3:56 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 
        
        "PAUL LEGUTKI"         chicagopaul7418         
         <mailto:legutki@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject= Re%3A%20DeLoreans%20Sold%20on%20Ebay%3A%202012%20Q2%20Update%20%2868%20months%20of%20data%29> 
 
 
 
 It's always nice to see the phrase standard deviation and realize that I am not 
 being spoken of
 
 ________________________________
 From: tho323 <tho323@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:tho323%40gmail.com> >
 To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> 
 Sent: Sun, July 1, 2012 1:03:55 PM
 Subject: [DML] DeLoreans Sold on Ebay: 2012 Q2 Update (68 months of data)
 
 DeLoreans Sold on Ebay: 2012 Q2 Update (68 months of data).
 
 "I may be late posting, but I have not stopped collecting the data, so... here 
 is a summary and notes of 68(!) months of eBay sales of DeLorean."
 
 < the rest, with graph & table at link below>
 http://delorean2109.blogspot.com/2012/07/2012-q2-update-of-delorean-dmc-12-sales.html
 
 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
  
 
 
 
             
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 6 
  
        
        1981 AMC Wiring Diagrams (With *ONE* Capacitor Circled in Red)        
         <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/85620;_ylc=X3oDMTJyZGppbTdpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNTQzMjAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTI2MjE1BG1zZ0lkAzg1NjIwBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEzNDEzMDU4ODU-> 
  
 Mon Jul 2, 2012 8:29 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 
        
        "content22207"         content22207         
         <mailto:brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject= Re%3A%201981%20AMC%20Wiring%20Diagrams%20%28With%20%2AONE%2A%20Capacitor%20Circled%20in%20Red%29> 
 
 As promised, 1981 AMC wiring diagrams. I circled the *ONE* capacitor in red so you don't have to do a Where's Waldo search for it:
 http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/563516_424577984254124_889871331_n.jpg
 http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/563516_424577997587456_1696013055_n.jpg
 http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/563516_424578000920789_1448956703_n.jpg
 http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/563516_424578010920788_858902710_n.jpg
 http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/563516_424578027587453_849973845_n.jpg
 http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/s720x720/554163_424578674254055_699054540_n.jpg
 http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/554163_424578687587387_831375165_n.jpg
 
 1981 AMC's differ from 1981 DeLoreans because they have metal unit body construction (100% galvanized, thank you very much). Whereas 1981 DeLoreans depend upon seven wires to ground nearly all of the vehicle's circuits, 1981 AMC's use the entire car structure as a gigantic ground bus. 
 
 By joining all of my DeLorean's original ground junctions to the battery with 4 gauge battery cable, I am giving its original seven ground wires an electrical cross section much more similar to a metal bodied car.
 
 Why is this simple concept so hard for certain DMLer's, who claim to be smarter than me, to grasp? 
 
 Oh well, at least I get to enjoy the benefits of a properly grounded vehicle.
 
 Bill Robertson
 #5939
 
  
 
 
 
             
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 7a 
  
        
        Grounding.        
         <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/85621;_ylc=X3oDMTJyZWdhbmFzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNTQzMjAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTI2MjE1BG1zZ0lkAzg1NjIxBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEzNDEzMDU4ODU-> 
  
 Mon Jul 2, 2012 9:57 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 
        
        "Cars"         twodelos2         
         <mailto:twodelo2@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject= Re%3A%20Grounding%2E> 
 
 Not to beat a dead Delo, but while Bill's idea of a heavy cable is good, I
 believe that a good piece of braided cable...like that sometimes found on
 negative battery cables, would be a much easier means of accomplishing the
 same effect. Plenty of conductivity, and connecting to can be done with a
 screw and appropriate washers and anywhere in the cable without having to
 remove insulation, etc. The washers should include penetrating stars.
 Which of course is what should be part of any of the grounds to the chassis,
 frame, etc. The points penetrate the oxidized/paint on the metal and prove
 to be "air tight".
 
 The capacitors might not be needed around switches and inductive devices,
 probably reversed diodes would serve the same process. The kicks from
 relays and motors coming on and going off (inductive devices) go negative,
 which is damped out by the diode. Don't remove the capacitors now...but
 adding diodes wouldn't hurt anything.
 
 Al Roberts
 twodelo2@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:twodelo2%40earthlink.net> 
 VIN 16049
 
  
 
 
 
             
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 7b 
  
        
        Re: Grounding.        
         <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/85622;_ylc=X3oDMTJyZHZpZXQ4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNTQzMjAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTI2MjE1BG1zZ0lkAzg1NjIyBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEzNDEzMDU4ODU-> 
  
 Mon Jul 2, 2012 10:22 pm (PDT) . Posted by: 
        
        "content22207"         content22207         
         <mailto:brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject= Re%3A%20Grounding%2E> 
 
 My ground bus *IS* made of 4 gauge twisted wire battery cable.
 
 At each junction in the original harness I stripped a saddle clamp's width of insulation, slid the saddle clamp into position, stripped the heat shrink off the factory junction, then used the saddle clamp to press the junction and the cable against each other:
 http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/547536_357252900986633_1055858619_n.jpg
 Each saddle clamp was then wrapped in heat shrink tape to protect it from oxidation:
 http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/534213_357245200987403_538568872_n.jpg
 
 The OEM ground system was not changed -- I *SUPPLEMENTED* it with parallel 4 gauge cable, all the way to the battery:
 http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/390111_294243023954288_1304124496_n.jpg
 
 Bill Robertson
 #5939
 
 --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> , "Cars" <twodelo2@...> wrote:
 >
 > Not to beat a dead Delo, but while Bill's idea of a heavy cable is good, I
 > believe that a good piece of braided cable...like that sometimes found on
 > negative battery cables, would be a much easier means of accomplishing the
 > same effect. Plenty of conductivity, and connecting to can be done with a
 > screw and appropriate washers and anywhere in the cable without having to
 > remove insulation, etc. The washers should include penetrating stars.
 > Which of course is what should be part of any of the grounds to the chassis,
 > frame, etc. The points penetrate the oxidized/paint on the metal and prove
 > to be "air tight".
 > 
 > The capacitors might not be needed around switches and inductive devices,
 > probably reversed diodes would serve the same process. The kicks from
 > relays and motors coming on and going off (inductive devices) go negative,
 > which is damped out by the diode. Don't remove the capacitors now...but
 > adding diodes wouldn't hurt anything.
 > 
 > Al Roberts
 > twodelo2@...
 > VIN 16049
 >
 
  
 
 
 
             
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