Re: [doc] Re: re still doesn't idle ok
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Re: [doc] Re: re still doesn't idle ok



If the car idles and runs with the brass screws only and revs up OK then the fault would be with the idle system.
  
  The air for the idle speed is drawn from under the air metering flap (brass tube behind) and is in this location so that the air consumed is still metered for correct fuelling.
  
  If you have followed the checks I have given you correctly then it is the idle speed motor or the ecu.
  
  See my previous post how to check the idle speed motor itself.
  Do this with the motor off the car so you can see the valve opening and closing.
  This valve is not sprung return in any way so just seeing it open would be co-incidental as you can open or close it just by slight hand movement.
  
  If this is OK then I would say it was the ecu.
  
  NickT.

blackaddertoo <blackaddertoo@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
  hi

i have not tried yet.

went down at lunch time and checked the coil terminal 1 to idle
ecu...gues what checked out ok with continuity test (and long wire).

checked if the yellow lead from coil to capacitor checked earth and
it did but i could not get the body of the capacitor to check out to
earth, i can only see the yellow lead going in and i assumed the
body was earth.

so iv'e pretty much run out of checks to do!?
what i might try is close the idle motor with 12V.

then try to start (obviously should not)
then momentarily earth the one side to open the valve slightly and
try again, to see if i can get her to idle taking the air through
the motor. at present the valve looks very open...should it be like
this when cold? or is too much air being pulled in.

i am trying to establish if the fault lies in the tube the idle
motor conects to or perhaps some kind of blockage in the air
manifold bypass.
as the idle screws take the air direct through the main duct,
whereas the idle motor take it the bypass route. this is correct is
it not?.

just hop all this lot is not masking some other problem like the
lambda system, but i thought if the lambda system is on the blink
the the car should run rich (and not affect the idle)?


Regards

Steve



--- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Richard Hutchinson"
wrote:
>
> Can you get it to idle at anything less than 1500 on the screws?
>
> Rich H
> DOC 365 VIN 1274
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf
> Of
> > blackaddertoo
> > Sent: 19 January 2006 02:28
> > To: doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [doc] Re: re still doesn't idle ok
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > thanx Mike and Nick and anyone else who've helped.
> >
> > i live near wolverhampton.
> >
> > a good idea to drive...but...is not yet mot'd/registered.
> > i know i could book her in then drive to the test station but i
have
> > to do the track rod ends (bolts are rusty and want to make sure
they
> > are safe)
> > i need a front screen (but that could wait till after an mot run.
> >
> > but main part i need a small section of frame welding, on
passenger
> > side by fuel tank.
> > tank has got to come out again.
> >
> > i will probably run the last checks on the coil feed, and if that
> > does not work, readjust the screws and back out the garage and
warm
> > up (extinguisher at ready as first time for 12 years)
> >
> > i may also put 12v across the idle motor to make it shut, then
> > reconnect and see if it reopens.
> >
> > i also wondered if i am looking in the wrong place for the
fault, as
> > obviously the idle motor feeds the air down the bypass brass
pipe,
> > whereas the screws feed it though the main manifold inlets.
> >
> > so is my bypass pipe ok ( i have removed and replaced the seal)
> >
> > i also have not tried to start while holding the flap down a
touch
> > (i think this enriches the mixture???)
> >
> > thanx for the help, and believe it or not i enjoy the challenge
of
> > working on the car.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Mike Bosworth"

> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Steve
> > >
> > > If your car idles 'ok 'with the brass screw method and is ok to
> > > drive ,then taking it for a real good run is going to help,
> > > especially if its been sat some time like it appears to have
been.
> > >
> > > At the end of this run how see how well the car has performed
and
> > > run, does it smell like its overfueling, missing, poor
> > acceleration
> > > etc etc, also an exhaust gas analyzer will give you a good
> > indication
> > > of how well the car is set up mixture wise, if thats way off
its
> > not
> > > going to help for starters, but as has been previously said,
dont
> > > start fiddling with the mixture screw willy nilly ( now
theres a
> > > phrase for you :) )
> > >
> > > Take it for a real good drive and let us know how it goes. If
it
> > goes
> > > well then at least you have narrowed it down.
> > >
> > > I agree with all Nick is saying, and unfortunatly in this
instance
> > > there is only so much help people can give without actually
seeing
> > > the car, but we will keep trying are there any other owners
near
> > by
> > > to you? ...
> > >
> > >
> > > Kind Regards
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > #2001
> > >
> > >
> > > > however i cannot understand why the car idles with the brass
> > screws
> > > > adjusted.
> > > > perhaps i need to see if the car warms up fully and drives ok
> > that
> > > > way?
> > > > thanx again for your assistance.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > Steve
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Nick Tomlinson
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The coil connection is for pickup for the ignition
amplifier
> > > which
> > > > is separate.
> > > > > If this was faulty your car would not run at all (i.e. no
> > spark)
> > > > >
> > > > > You will need to remove the coil cover and check for
> > continuity
> > > > between terminal marked "1" or "CB" and the pin at the idle
> > speed
> > > > ecu multiplug. Wire is white and slate I think. If this
cable is
> > > > open circuit then the idle speed ecu has no engine speed
> > feedback.
> > > > >
> > > > > The blue wire (shielded) goes to the fuel computer and is
from
> > > > the oxygen sensor input cable.
> > > > >
> > > > > You should now have checked all the wiring and assuming you
> > have
> > > > put the diode in the correct way round (stripe to the
throttle
> > > > switch) there is nothing else I can suggest apart from
removing
> > the
> > > > idle control valve and looking at the rotary valve when you
> > first
> > > > put the ignition to position 2. The valve should be
controlled
> > to
> > > > fully open. If the valve fully closes then the 2 control
wires
> > are
> > > > on the wrong way round or the plug has been shove on the
wrong
> > way
> > > > round.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is assuming that the ecu and valve have been checked
out
> > OK
> > > > btu I think you have had that confirmed already.
> > > > >
> > > > > One last thing I can think is that the ecu multiplugs have
> > been
> > > > put on the ecu the wrong way round but it is easy to tell if
the
> > 4
> > > > wired one goes to the right hand side socket on the ecu when
> > > viewing
> > > > the pins on the ecu.
> > > > >
> > > > > NickT
> > > > >
> > > > > blackaddertoo wrote:
> > > > > Hi Nick and all
> > > > >
> > > > > managed to slope off a site early, with tools in the boot
and
> > do
> > > > > some more testing.
> > > > >
> > > > > checked diode with meter...reads 700 on diode test and
tried
> > with
> > > > a
> > > > > test light and jump battery, lights one way and not the
other
> > so
> > > i
> > > > > think the didode is ok.
> > > > >
> > > > > now with key on, in ignition positive power is ok at middle
> > > > > connection idle speed motor.
> > > > >
> > > > > ground connection at idle mutliplug checks ok for
continuity
> > with
> > > > > body panel ie -ve ok.
> > > > >
> > > > > checked continuity of other two connections at idle speed
> > motor
> > > > plug.
> > > > > checks ok at ecu multiplug, ie no break in wire
> > > > >
> > > > > checked pulse coil connection on left side of rear engine
at
> > fire
> > > > > wall...checks at 550 ohms...is this ok as specialT say this
> > > should
> > > > > be about 600+ ohms
> > > > >
> > > > > the only lead lest to check is the feed from the coil...do
i
> > take
> > > > > off the coil cover and investigate there? i could not quite
> > see
> > > > > where the leads go...assuming it connects at the ecu
mutliplug.
> > > > >
> > > > > tried again to start..runs 10 seconds then chugs and dies
as
> > if
> > > > the
> > > > > engine is being starved of air/petrol...but it did idle
fine
> > with
> > > > > the brass screws adjusted.
> > > > >
> > > > > one thing to note...a mouse has been living with the ecus
in
> > the
> > > > > corner behind the drivers seat.
> > > > > the blue wire (i think it is the feed for the 02 sensor
> > maybe?)
> > > or
> > > > > is the the coil connection has a small amount of chew
marks,
> > > > > exposing the wire below...does not look like the wire
itself
> > has
> > > > > been damaged, however i think this looks like a shielded
cable
> > so
> > > > > can't be good.
> > > > > maybe i might have to remove all the mutliplugs and the
metal
> > > > > support and check all the wiring out.
> > > > > if the lambda ecu/wiring was faulty would the car idle with
> > brass
> > > > > screw adjustment? i thought not?
> > > > >
> > > > > thanx for any help.
> > > > >
> > > > > a mouse also chewed through my headlight wiring and the
rear
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > indicator plastic!!!! haven't found any dead ones though.
> > > > >
> > > > > regards
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Nick Tomlinson
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The resistance test is a simple one on a diode and you
> > remember
> > > > > correctly.
> > > > > > Diodes though can become 'leaky' when the PN junction
breaks
> > > > > down which is why you check with the diode function. This
will
> > > > show
> > > > > the voltage drop across the junction and depending on type
> > should
> > > > > show no voltage drop one way and between 500mV and 800mV
the
> > > other.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "
> > > > > > "Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable of
> > meter
> > > to
> > > > > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for throttle
> > switch
> > > > > input
> > > > > > (AT THE ECU MULTIPLUG) meter should read battery voltage
> > with
> > > > > > throttle closed (switch
> > > > > > > operated) and no voltage with throttle open.""
> > > > > > according to the workshop manual, does this input not
just
> > earth
> > > > > > when the switch is closed (car at idle) so to test i
earthed
> > it
> > > > > with
> > > > > > diode removed then tried to start car.
> > > > > > "
> > > > > > Yes, the unit does earth this switched point when the
> > throttle
> > > > > is closed.
> > > > > > The test I give will show if there is any feedback
voltage
> > from
> > > > > the other circuit showing the diode has gone short, leaky
or
> > open
> > > > > circuit. I am presuming that you earthed this input at an
> > earth
> > > > > point like the engine block or better yet the -VE battery
post.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hope the circuit diagram I sent to you makes the
connections
> > > > > clear.
> > > > > > Chances are you have an earth lead off somewhere so the
unit
> > > > > isn't earthing at the earth pin.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's always harder to explain in words what you could do
> > > > > yourself in 20 minutes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This problem will be fixed soon.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > NickT.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > blackaddertoo wrote:
> > > > > > Hi Nick
> > > > > >
> > > > > > thanx for the reply. Don't worry you can talk technical
as i
> > > > used
> > > > > to
> > > > > > do a bit of hobby electronics, building transmitters etc,
> > > simple
> > > > > > logic circuits etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > i thought the screw which has a lead to it earthed the
ecu.
> > > > > > i will recheck the multiplug earth.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > i will check for continuity from ecu multiplug to idle
> > motor.
> > > > did
> > > > > > not have any wire long enough yesterday, as the car is
> > parked
> > > > away
> > > > > > from home.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable of
> > meter
> > > to
> > > > > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for throttle
> > switch
> > > > > input
> > > > > > (AT THE ECU MULTIPLUG) meter should read battery voltage
> > with
> > > > > > throttle closed (switch
> > > > > > > operated) and no voltage with throttle open.""
> > > > > > according to the workshop manual, does this input not
just
> > earth
> > > > > > when the switch is closed (car at idle) so to test i
earthed
> > it
> > > > > with
> > > > > > diode removed then tried to start car.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the diode, i must be wrong but i thought it would read
> > > > continuity
> > > > > in
> > > > > > one direction ie no resistance one way and 100% the
other,
> > but
> > > i
> > > > > > couldn't remember back to my electronics days.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Steve
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Nick Tomlinson
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You said you checked the earth by:
> > > > > > > "earth check with continuity tester from screw into
base
> > to
> > > > car
> > > > > > body,
> > > > > > > to ecu multiplug"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This mounting screw just holds the ecu to the metal
frame
> > > > which
> > > > > > is earthed.
> > > > > > > The earth on the ecu is actually one of the pins on
the 6
> > pin
> > > > > > multiplug so check this first using the test:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable of
> > meter
> > > > to
> > > > > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for earth at
ecu
> > > > MULTI
> > > > > > PLUG, meter
> > > > > > > should read battery voltage."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Check continuity of all wires from the idle speed ecu
plug.
> > > > > > > Especially those to the idle speed motor.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "so how do i check the input from the coil/distibuter
> > (which
> > > i
> > > > > > assume
> > > > > > > gives the rpm signal (also runs the rev counter
input?)"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Said this in last message
> > > > > > > "You can check for continuity using the resistance
setting
> > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > multimeter and check for wire continuity between the
> > switched
> > > > > side
> > > > > > > of the coil to the ecu plug, (remove the ecu first). If
> > there
> > > > is
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > suppressor, temporarily disconnect it in case this has
> > gone
> > > > bad."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your test on continuity test through the diode would
give
> > a
> > > > > > result dependant on the positive feed from your
multimeter
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > > continuity test. This will be blocked or passed through
(in
> > > > > laymans
> > > > > > terms) due to the characteristic of the diode itself,
hence
> > the
> > > > > > diode test.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Put the diode back in the circuit and do the test as
in my
> > > > > > previous message
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable of
> > meter
> > > > to
> > > > > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for throttle
> > switch
> > > > > input
> > > > > > (AT THE ECU MULTIPLUG) meter should read battery voltage
> > with
> > > > > > throttle closed (switch
> > > > > > > operated) and no voltage with throttle open."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Do you have a circuit diagram of the idle speed ecu ?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > NickT.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > blackaddertoo wrote:
> > > > > > > hi Nick
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > thanx for the post...i know a long one but here hoes..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > earth check with continuity tester from screw into
base to
> > > car
> > > > > > body,
> > > > > > > to ecu multiplug
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > connected test light to main power ecu
multiplug...lights
> > > with
> > > > > > > ignition each time (tested fuse-ok)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > check throttle switch input before/after diode,
continuity
> > > > > before
> > > > > > > (with earth) non afterbut reads about 700 on doide
test on
> > > > meter
> > > > > > > from your comment this looks about right but removed
diode
> > > > > > > completely to test further. does not activate
continuity
> > > > buzzer
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > positive or neg current...thought it should.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > have not checked coil to ecu or ecu plug to idle plug
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > thermister has been replaced a couple of weeks
ago...reads
> > > > about
> > > > > > > 1800 ohms cold so that is ok i think.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > tried earthing the throttle input and starting the
> > car....car
> > > > > did
> > > > > > > the same...runs for 15 secs then chugs and dies.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > car idles ok (1500rpm) with brass screws adjusted so i
> > assume
> > > > co
> > > > > > > adjustment is ok otherwise it would not run?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > so how do i check the input from the coil/distibuter
> > (which i
> > > > > > assume
> > > > > > > gives the rpm signal (also runs the rev counter input?)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > i'm running out of things to test but surely my
problems
> > are
> > > > > here
> > > > > > > somewhere.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Steve
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Nick Tomlinson
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How did you check the earth connection at the ecu
multi
> > > plug?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Have you checked for a switched connected at the ecu
> > > > multiplug
> > > > > > > from the throttle switch?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable
of
> > > meter
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for earth at
ecu,
> > > > meter
> > > > > > > should read battery voltage.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable
of
> > > meter
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for throttle
> > switch
> > > > > > input,
> > > > > > > meter should read battery voltage with throttle closed
> > > (switch
> > > > > > > operated) and no voltage with throttle open.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > With the ECU plugged in, check the multiplug that
goes
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > idle speed motor, the centre pin should have 12v on it
> > (with
> > > > key
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > ignition and tuned to position 2) continuously. The ecu
> > > > > > momentarily
> > > > > > > earths the outer pins to open and close the motor.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You can check for continuity using the resistance
> > setting
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > multimeter and check for wire continuity between the
> > switched
> > > > > side
> > > > > > > of the coil to the ecu plug, (remove the ecu first). If
> > there
> > > > is
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > suppressor, temporarily disconnect it in case this has
> > gone
> > > > bad.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The white lead from the distributor to the ecu is
from
> > the
> > > > > > > negatively switched side of the coil. If this was short
> > then
> > > > the
> > > > > > car
> > > > > > > would not run at all.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The Diode should be tested using diode function on
the
> > > > > > > multimeter ideally not resistance.
> > > > > > > > Reading should be between 500 and 800 with test leads
> > one
> > > > way
> > > > > > > round on the diode, and no reading (ie infinite) the
other
> > > way
> > > > > > round.
> > > > > > > > The diode is there to stop feedback voltage going to
> > this
> > > > > > > circuit, as the throttle microswitch operates a couple
of
> > > > other
> > > > > > > circuits too.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I would say from your resistance tests that this
diode
> > > would
> > > > > > > appear to be open circuit.
> > > > > > > > Temporarily connect this wire to permanent earth for
> > idle
> > > > > > > testing purposes only. Does the car idle now?? If it
does
> > > then
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > diode will need replacing. Note which way round the
diode
> > is
> > > > > when
> > > > > > > you removed it and replace it with another the right
way
> > > round.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I am presuming that you have check for wire
continuity
> > > > between
> > > > > > > the idle speed motor multiplug and the idle speed ecu
> > > > multiplug.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Have you measured the thermister resistance?
> > > > > > > > Do this by using your multimeter on resistance and
> > connect
> > > > to
> > > > > > > the 2 pins on the idle speed ecu multiplug. If you get
no
> > > > > reading
> > > > > > > (open circuit) then the connector to the thermistor
> > connector
> > > > > plug
> > > > > > > may have fallen off or the thermistor itself has gone

=== message truncated === 


           
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