RE: [DML] Why Owners Carburete Their DeLoreans

["DarkStar Media" <darkstarmedia@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

If you have modified the EFI system to run open loop than yes... you have
purposefully modified the emissions system and are subject to fines.

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Farrar Hudkins
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 10:12 AM
To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [DML] Why Owners Carburete Their DeLoreans

Are owners who run "open loop" or EFI at richer than stoich also subject to
"fines exceeding $10k" from the EPA?

Farrar Hudkins
#2613

On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 12:05 PM, DarkStar Media
<darkstarmedia@xxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Bill,
>
> I believe a properly tuned carb won't kill the cat right away but it 
> can shorten the life of the cat... I'd personally like to see the data 
> either way.
>
> But...
>
> How would you ever know if the cats stop working? The carburated cars 
> will not pass smog anyway.
> I will also mention that the swap you do violates epa laws (ie it is 
> not legall). I imagine that the cars you do this on are in areas that 
> do not have emissions testing.... It's still not legal. Unless you 
> have put your conversion through CARB OE certification...
>
> Do you inform these people that there could be fines exceeding $10k?
>
> Do you realize the position you put your self in if you are reported 
> to the epa and they bother to investigate?
>
> Richard
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
> Behalf Of
> content22207
> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 5:30 AM
> To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [DML] Why Owners Carburete Their DeLoreans
>
> Farrar Hudkins -- the one who started the carburetion craze -- has 
> been running his carb with catalytic converters (he has two of them) since
2008.
> John Marconi has been running his carb with a stock converter since 2009.
> Bob Babcock has been running his carb with a stock converter since 
> 2010. I believe Garen Martens and Virgil Poole both have stock 
> converters, but I haven't seen their cars in person to verify that.
>
> No, I am not worried.
>
> You certainly are worried. Since both Farrar and John read the DML, 
> why don't you send them each an eMail message to that effect? They 
> have been running carb conversions the longest (#1 2008 and #2 2009), 
> so your warning is long overdue.
>
> If I send send them an eMail, it will read something like "glad your 
> carb is still working well all these years later, especially in 
> conjunction with your exhaust system," which just won't have the same 
> effect.
>
> Bill Robertson
> #5939
>
> --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> , 
> "Martin
>
> Gutkowski" <martin@...> wrote:
> >
> > I'm concerned for the person who decides to fit one of your 
> > conversions
> and kills their working catalyst with potentially dangerous results!
> >
> > Why aren't you?
> >
> > Because "you haven't seen a problem yet"?
> >
> > That is a poor poor position to take.
> >
> > Martin
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my BlackBerryR
>
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "content22207" <brobertson@...>
> > Sender: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 12:03:03
> > To: <dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> >
> > Reply-To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [DML] Why Owners Carburete Their DeLoreans
> >
> > Until someone reports a problem, I am going to continue to make what 
> > I
> have been making as I have been making them.
> >
> > I certainly am not going to stop making carb conversions simply 
> > because
> you now claim, four years later, that they will not work.
> >
> > Real world experience has you trumped on this one.
> >
> > Bill Robertson
> > #5939
> >
> >
> > --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> ,
>
> "Martin Gutkowski" <martin@> wrote:
> > >
> > > So are you going to stop promoting your carb conversion as 
> > > suitable for
> cat-equipped engines, or will you continue with the "celestial teapot"
> approach?
> > >
> > > The issue of 3 way catalysts requiring a stochiometric mixture is
FACT.
> Your "empirical" data is flawed.
> > >
> > > I also suggest you look up the definition of the word "theory"
> > >
> > > Martin
> > >
> > > Sent from my BlackBerryR
>
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "content22207" <brobertson@>
> > > Sender: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 23:32:45
> > > To: <dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> >
> > > Reply-To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [DML] Why Owners Carburete Their DeLoreans
> > >
> > > I know this frustrates you, but I simply can not respond to a 
> > > problem
> that hasn't been reported. Until an owner reports a problem, there is 
> nothing for me to respond to.
> > >
> > > You are reporting a problem, but you do not have one of my
conversions.
> The problem you report exists only in your head (insofar as it is 
> directly connected to my conversions -- your problem is theoretical, not
empirical).
> > >
> > > I promise: as soon as an owner reports a problem, I will let you know.
> Until then both of us are going to have to patiently wait.
> > >
> > > Bill Robertson
> > > #5939
> > >
> > > --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> 
> > > ,
>
> "Martin Gutkowski" <martin@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > How about hooking up a new catalyst to one of your carb equipped
> engines and see if you GET a problem... I'd have thought you'd love to 
> be able to promote your setup to all owners!
> > > >
> > > > Martin
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my BlackBerryR
>
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: "content22207" <brobertson@>
> > > > Sender: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 22:36:59
> > > > To: <dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> 
> > > > >
> > > > Reply-To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [DML] Why Owners Carburete Their DeLoreans
> > > >
> > > > As soon as an owner reports a problem, I will let you know.
> > > >
> > > > Bill Robertson
> > > > #5939
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> ,
>
> "Martin Gutkowski" <martin@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill, 3 way catalysts can't survive being connected to an 
> > > > > engine
> that isn't fuelling at stochiometry for the majority of time. This 
> isn't theory, it's well understood cast iron chemical fact!
> > > > >
> > > > > Your tiny sample of owners include many with fuel delivery 
> > > > > problems
> to begin with, right? I'd put money on their cats being knackered 
> before you went anywhere near the car. I've seen what happens when a 
> non-lambda k-jet system is hooked up to a working stock catalyst so 
> I'm talking from experience as well as education.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your "nah nah nah I can't hear you" routine on this subject 
> > > > > just
> goes to show how limited your knowledge really is as well as your 
> stubbornness that Marc alluded to before..
> > > > >
> > > > > Martin
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent from my BlackBerryR
>
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: "content22207" <brobertson@>
> > > > > Sender: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 22:00:16
> > > > > To: <dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > >
> > > > > Reply-To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [DML] Why Owners Carburete Their DeLoreans
> > > > >
> > > > > Not a single owner with a stock exhaust system has reported 
> > > > > any
> problems with the OEM converter, so my conversions appear to be 
> compatible with 3 way catalyst. You can argue the point theoretically 
> all you want -- real world use has not revealed any problems.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is nothing preventing an owner from dyno or gas analyzer
> tuning his carb. Allstate Carburetor (www.allcarbs.com) sells 
> Motorcraft jets in every size available (eBay jet sizes are hit & 
> miss). Also, if any owner wants to use a venturi size other than 
> 1.08", Autolite castings have many more size options than Motorcraft 
> (bear in mind that Autolite 2100's have twitchy choke pulloffs, and 
> there isn't any easy way to put a Motorcraft pulloff on an Autolite 
> casting). Owners seem happy with the castings and jets I provide, 
> however subjective that happiness may in fact be.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know it frustrates your theoretical arguments, but real 
> > > > > world
> experience is all I have to offer. Catalytic converters simply are not 
> melting -- sorry. Apparently the only way I can make them melt is to 
> jet the carbs far richer than I do. Also, owners are reporting good 
> fuel economy and performance. You can call them delusional or liars if 
> you want -- I'm just happy that they are happy.
> > > > >
> > > > > Correction to my original post: 2 owners wanted partial
> conversions,
> not complete conversions. Everyone else has requested the full monty.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill Robertson
> > > > > #5939
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> ,
>
> Martin Gutkowski <martin@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ...so you aren't going to answer the points about accurate 
> > > > > > AFR and the incompatibility with a 3-way catalyst?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Fine, you make a bolt-on fuel delivery system, we get that. 
> > > > > > Well
> done.
> > > > > > Stop trying to sell it as something it isn't and we'll stop 
> > > > > > criticising you for trying. Marc put it best in his last 
> > > > > > email, you keep advertising it as solving problems you alone 
> > > > > > are
> finding.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Martin
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 12/04/2012 20:00, content22207 wrote:
> > > > > > > While each owner who carbureted his DeLorean had reasons 
> > > > > > > to do
> so unique to himself (ask nicely and any of them likely will tell you 
> what those reasons were), I think it is safe to say that not a single 
> one of them wanted to design and fabricate a new induction system from 
> the ground up.
> They wanted a bolt on, turn key replacement that would work reliably 
> from the first key turn onward. That is what I make. Arguments that 
> these owners should have designed and built their own induction 
> systems (of whatever
> ilk)
> probably ring hollow in their ears. That other owners have done so is 
> irrelevant -- people who come to me are looking for a complete 
> conversion in a single box, a "kit" if you will.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bill Robertson
> > > > > > > #5939
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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>  
>



--
Sent from my laser-guided nuclear-powered refrigerator, operated by its crew
of hyperintelligent pandimensional cyborg kittens, controlled remotely via
telekinetic sonic screwdriver.


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