I read these lengthy articles, though I fail to see how they show that retarding ignition increases horsepower. The hotrod article says to find where it pings and retard a few degrees. This is to have a safety margin because pinging is bad, not because they're hunting for an elusive optimal timing location. If running at the threshold of pinging could be reasonably done, i think that it would be done. Fact is that the flame propagation changes from one fire to the next. Neither of the articles say "Backing off 2 or 3 degrees" , so who are you quoting? As far as your CLASSIC fords go, you haven't really proven anything. Are the two engines EXACTLY the same from air filter to exhaust tip except for the timing? I doubt it, especially if the advanced engine claims less horsepower. Is the 3 degrees of advance for the '78 engine consistent from idle to redline? Again, don't think so. Show me the '78 engine on a dyno at 208hp, then dyno the engine retarded 3 degrees. Bet you $1 million dollars the HP doesn't go up to 219hp. Jim On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:57:51 -0000 "content22207" <brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx> writes: > Spent half the afternoon educating Walt so only have time for short > surfing, but here are two immediate web pages from "ignition timing > optimum" search: > > http://www.omniturbo.com/Mopar%20Pages/Racetech/ignition_and_combustion.h tm > http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/43300/index.html > > Notice they say the same thing I do -- there is a point of > diminishing > return in ignition advance. But that is intuitive. By definition: > threshold of ping/knock/clatter is NOT time of optimum spark -- it > is > as close as you can get to potential engine damage. "Backing off 2 > or > 3 degrees" (isn't that a wonderfully precise measurement) admits it! > > Oh, you still need to explain why advancing specified time from 13 > degrees (1977) to 16 degrees (1978) on my Ford 460's (remembered > spec's incorrectly as 17 to 20 -- apologies. Doesn't really matter > since I do time them manually due to funky harmonic balancers) > LOWERED > published horsepower from 219 to 208. By your reasoning it should > have > gone UP. Could it be that Ford had passed the optimum point of > ignition advance... > > Looks like a heavy gravity day, Walt. > > Bill Robertson > #5939 > > >--- In DMCForum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Jim Strickland > <ihaveanaccount@xxxx> > wrote: > > > > On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 14:52:23 -0000 "content22207" > > <brobertson@xxxx> writes: > > > But the engine will still run acceptably with ignition advanced > > > SOMEWHAT before that point. Power is reduced, but less pollution > is > > created. > > > > Since you insist of saying the same thing over and over again, > which it > > seems you blindly believe but is still absolutely wrong, I've > posted > some > > links and lines from the web. Coincidentally, they all specify > increased > > spark advance coupled with an INCREASE in horsepower > > > > 1. > > "This little gem "advises" the PCM to provide maximum spark > advance > (1 to > > 2 degree increase) yet still retain proper knock sensor and engine > > function. A 5 to 7 horsepower increase is possible." > > http://www.ls1motorsports.com/news.asp > > > > 2. > > chipping a motor will usually advance the ignition timing, adjust > the > > fuel/air ratio, and modify several > > other highly proprietary and secret things to increase > performance. > > > http://member.rivernet.com.au/btaylor/BMWText/technical/FuelOctane.html > > > > 3. > > R&D Stage 1 Kit includes R&D 6 degree timing advance kits, 29cc > cylinder > > head kit, ride plate, Aquavein scoop intake grate, reed stuffers > and > > power plenum air filters. The R&D kit not only provides increased > > horsepower > > http://www.dalesjetsports.com/watercraft/Kawasaki_SXR_800.htm > > > > 4. > > TST adds power and torque by increasing the injection pulse width > time, > > and by advancing the timing of the start of injection. > > http://www.snowwest.ca/swpd/atsdieselfgmc.html > > > > 5. > > Cheap horsepower gains: > > Advance timing ? experiment to see how high you can advance it and > not > > have pinging. > > http://home.pon.net/hunnicutt/50must.htm > > > > Are you going to stop saying this or do I need to post another 5. > > > > Jim > > > > PS BTW raising compression lowers hp. > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > DMCForum-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > Yahoo! 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