RE: [DML] Why Owners Carburete Their DeLoreans

["DarkStar Media" <darkstarmedia@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Scratch that quote from below... wrong epa... but you can google the text of
the Federal Clean Air Act for more info.

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
DarkStar Media
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 10:26 AM
To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [DML] Why Owners Carburete Their DeLoreans

  

>From the epa...

"
The Environment Protection Act 1970 (the Act) requires various parties -
including designers, manufacturers, sellers, owners and drivers - to do or
not do certain things with respect to air and noise emissions from motor
vehicles. These requirements are spelt out in more detail in the Environment
Protection (Vehicle Emissions) Regulations 2003 (the Regulations). Both the
Act and the Regulations state that anyone who fails to comply with a
requirement is guilty of an offence and liable to a penalty, with the
maximum penalty for the most serious offences being 240 penalty units (over
$240,000).
"

This is why most aftermarket parts have to go through testing to attain an
executive order exception number to verify that they will not adversely
affect emissions.

To do this testing requires thousands of dollars but is doable (I was
looking into it for my EFI system that I was developing. 

Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
Behalf Of DarkStar Media
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 10:20 AM
To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [DML] Why Owners Carburete Their DeLoreans

If you have modified the EFI system to run open loop than yes... you have
purposefully modified the emissions system and are subject to fines.

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Farrar Hudkins
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 10:12 AM
To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [DML] Why Owners Carburete Their DeLoreans

Are owners who run "open loop" or EFI at richer than stoich also subject to
"fines exceeding $10k" from the EPA?

Farrar Hudkins
#2613

On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 12:05 PM, DarkStar Media <darkstarmedia@xxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:darkstarmedia%40comcast.net>
<mailto:darkstarmedia%40comcast.net> >wrote:

> **
>
>
> Bill,
>
> I believe a properly tuned carb won't kill the cat right away but it 
> can shorten the life of the cat... I'd personally like to see the data 
> either way.
>
> But...
>
> How would you ever know if the cats stop working? The carburated cars 
> will not pass smog anyway.
> I will also mention that the swap you do violates epa laws (ie it is 
> not legall). I imagine that the cars you do this on are in areas that 
> do not have emissions testing.... It's still not legal. Unless you 
> have put your conversion through CARB OE certification...
>
> Do you inform these people that there could be fines exceeding $10k?
>
> Do you realize the position you put your self in if you are reported 
> to the epa and they bother to investigate?
>
> Richard
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>  
> <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>  
> <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> content22207
> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 5:30 AM
> To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>  
> <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [DML] Why Owners Carburete Their DeLoreans
>
> Farrar Hudkins -- the one who started the carburetion craze -- has 
> been running his carb with catalytic converters (he has two of them) 
> since
2008.
> John Marconi has been running his carb with a stock converter since 2009.
> Bob Babcock has been running his carb with a stock converter since 
> 2010. I believe Garen Martens and Virgil Poole both have stock 
> converters, but I haven't seen their cars in person to verify that.
>
> No, I am not worried.
>
> You certainly are worried. Since both Farrar and John read the DML, 
> why don't you send them each an eMail message to that effect? They 
> have been running carb conversions the longest (#1 2008 and #2 2009), 
> so your warning is long overdue.
>
> If I send send them an eMail, it will read something like "glad your 
> carb is still working well all these years later, especially in 
> conjunction with your exhaust system," which just won't have the same 
> effect.
>
> Bill Robertson
> #5939
>
> --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>  
> <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> , "Martin
>
> Gutkowski" <martin@...> wrote:
> >
> > I'm concerned for the person who decides to fit one of your 
> > conversions
> and kills their working catalyst with potentially dangerous results!
> >
> > Why aren't you?
> >
> > Because "you haven't seen a problem yet"?
> >
> > That is a poor poor position to take.
> >
> > Martin
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my BlackBerryR
>
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "content22207" <brobertson@...>
> > Sender: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>  
> > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 12:03:03
> > To: <dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>  
> > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> >
> > Reply-To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>  
> > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [DML] Why Owners Carburete Their DeLoreans
> >
> > Until someone reports a problem, I am going to continue to make what 
> > I
> have been making as I have been making them.
> >
> > I certainly am not going to stop making carb conversions simply 
> > because
> you now claim, four years later, that they will not work.
> >
> > Real world experience has you trumped on this one.
> >
> > Bill Robertson
> > #5939
> >
> >
> > --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>  
> > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> ,
>
> "Martin Gutkowski" <martin@> wrote:
> > >
> > > So are you going to stop promoting your carb conversion as 
> > > suitable for
> cat-equipped engines, or will you continue with the "celestial teapot"
> approach?
> > >
> > > The issue of 3 way catalysts requiring a stochiometric mixture is
FACT.
> Your "empirical" data is flawed.
> > >
> > > I also suggest you look up the definition of the word "theory"
> > >
> > > Martin
> > >
> > > Sent from my BlackBerryR
>
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "content22207" <brobertson@>
> > > Sender: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>  
> > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 23:32:45
> > > To: <dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>  
> > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> >
> > > Reply-To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [DML] Why Owners Carburete Their DeLoreans
> > >
> > > I know this frustrates you, but I simply can not respond to a 
> > > problem
> that hasn't been reported. Until an owner reports a problem, there is 
> nothing for me to respond to.
> > >
> > > You are reporting a problem, but you do not have one of my
conversions.
> The problem you report exists only in your head (insofar as it is 
> directly connected to my conversions -- your problem is theoretical, 
> not
empirical).
> > >
> > > I promise: as soon as an owner reports a problem, I will let you know.
> Until then both of us are going to have to patiently wait.
> > >
> > > Bill Robertson
> > > #5939
> > >
> > > --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>  
> > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > ,
>
> "Martin Gutkowski" <martin@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > How about hooking up a new catalyst to one of your carb equipped
> engines and see if you GET a problem... I'd have thought you'd love to 
> be able to promote your setup to all owners!
> > > >
> > > > Martin
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my BlackBerryR
>
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: "content22207" <brobertson@>
> > > > Sender: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 22:36:59
> > > > To: <dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>  
> > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > >
> > > > Reply-To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [DML] Why Owners Carburete Their DeLoreans
> > > >
> > > > As soon as an owner reports a problem, I will let you know.
> > > >
> > > > Bill Robertson
> > > > #5939
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com> ,
>
> "Martin Gutkowski" <martin@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill, 3 way catalysts can't survive being connected to an 
> > > > > engine
> that isn't fuelling at stochiometry for the majority of time. This 
> isn't theory, it's well understood cast iron chemical fact!
> > > > >
> > > > > Your tiny sample of owners include many with fuel delivery 
> > > > > problems
> to begin with, right? I'd put money on their cats being knackered 
> before you went anywhere near the car. I've seen what happens when a 
> non-lambda k-jet system is hooked up to a working stock catalyst so 
> I'm talking from experience as well as education.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your "nah nah nah I can't hear you" routine on this subject 
> > > > > just
> goes to show how limited your knowledge really is as well as your 
> stubbornness that Marc alluded to before..
> > > > >
> > > > > Martin
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent from my BlackBerryR
>
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: "content22207" <brobertson@>
> > > > > Sender: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 22:00:16
> > > > > To: <dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > >
> > > > > Reply-To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [DML] Why Owners Carburete Their DeLoreans
> > > > >
> > > > > Not a single owner with a stock exhaust system has reported 
> > > > > any
> problems with the OEM converter, so my conversions appear to be 
> compatible with 3 way catalyst. You can argue the point theoretically 
> all you want -- real world use has not revealed any problems.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is nothing preventing an owner from dyno or gas analyzer
> tuning his carb. Allstate Carburetor (www.allcarbs.com) sells 
> Motorcraft jets in every size available (eBay jet sizes are hit & 
> miss). Also, if any owner wants to use a venturi size other than 
> 1.08", Autolite castings have many more size options than Motorcraft 
> (bear in mind that Autolite 2100's have twitchy choke pulloffs, and 
> there isn't any easy way to put a Motorcraft pulloff on an Autolite 
> casting). Owners seem happy with the castings and jets I provide, 
> however subjective that happiness may in fact be.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know it frustrates your theoretical arguments, but real 
> > > > > world
> experience is all I have to offer. Catalytic converters simply are not 
> melting -- sorry. Apparently the only way I can make them melt is to 
> jet the carbs far richer than I do. Also, owners are reporting good 
> fuel economy and performance. You can call them delusional or liars if 
> you want -- I'm just happy that they are happy.
> > > > >
> > > > > Correction to my original post: 2 owners wanted partial
> conversions,
> not complete conversions. Everyone else has requested the full monty.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill Robertson
> > > > > #5939
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > <mailto:dmcnews%40yahoogroups.com>
> ,
>
> Martin Gutkowski <martin@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ...so you aren't going to answer the points about accurate 
> > > > > > AFR and the incompatibility with a 3-way catalyst?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Fine, you make a bolt-on fuel delivery system, we get that. 
> > > > > > Well
> done.
> > > > > > Stop trying to sell it as something it isn't and we'll stop 
> > > > > > criticising you for trying. Marc put it best in his last 
> > > > > > email, you keep advertising it as solving problems you alone 
> > > > > > are
> finding.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Martin
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 12/04/2012 20:00, content22207 wrote:
> > > > > > > While each owner who carbureted his DeLorean had reasons 
> > > > > > > to do
> so unique to himself (ask nicely and any of them likely will tell you 
> what those reasons were), I think it is safe to say that not a single 
> one of them wanted to design and fabricate a new induction system from 
> the ground up.
> They wanted a bolt on, turn key replacement that would work reliably 
> from the first key turn onward. That is what I make. Arguments that 
> these owners should have designed and built their own induction 
> systems (of whatever
> ilk)
> probably ring hollow in their ears. That other owners have done so is 
> irrelevant -- people who come to me are looking for a complete 
> conversion in a single box, a "kit" if you will.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bill Robertson
> > > > > > > #5939
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> 
>

--
Sent from my laser-guided nuclear-powered refrigerator, operated by its crew
of hyperintelligent pandimensional cyborg kittens, controlled remotely via
telekinetic sonic screwdriver.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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